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The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

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Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#301
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The original codebase is at http://arclanguage.org/ and many forums have started with it over the years. > One of these years we'll release an update of it that incorporates a lot of the changes we've made to HN. Out of curiosity, absent such a release, is there a public changelog anywhere? If not, that would be a great start.

pg used to do one, but I forget the URL. We should probably start again.

> pg used to do one, but I forget the URL. We should probably start again.

I'll keep an eye out for one then.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#302

When I first came to HN from reddit, I posted some jokey nonsense comment. A moderator gently scolded me. I really disliked it. Now, I see the wisdom of keeping the jokes to a minimum and focusing in thoughtful discussion. So thank you, mods.

That's what impressed me when I first came across HN - the signal-to-noise ratio. The comments sections were always filled with thoughtfully written comments that provided useful insights into interesting topics. Thank you @dang for your diligence and commitment to the task.

Hot take: the fact that HN comments have an academic/professional tone doesn't make the noise go away. It just makes it easier to pass for useful comments.

On huge threads with like 1k comments, I do find that the high quality ones float to the surface (having more to do with stuff like hiding vote counts and restricting down vote access IMO). However, it's not hard to find people confidently talking out of their ass making it to the top of threads with even hundreds of comments. Look for people talking about something you are an expert in (or do a brief google search on a topic somebody is claiming expertise in, especially if it is related to ideology) and it isn't hard to spot. There are even all the bad cliche comments of the other platforms even if they aren't as simple as "have an upvote my friend" or "username checks out".

I find threads on politics and culture particularly unbearable here because it's the exact same chest beating and narratives that you will find on any other platform except that the posters possess the same self-rightousness and academic tone as if they were talking about mathematical fact and not a political opinion. Even more so, it often comes without the self-awareness to know that your opinions and arguments are most often being taken from whatever social media you frequent. Everybody is a "free thinker" here even though they spout off the exact same political arguments as everybody else in their clique. It makes some threads pretty toxic IMO because of how seriously everyone takes themselves. I'm of course making general claims to which there are exceptions, but this is something I've seen.

Thinking that you need to be super-intelligent to post on or browse HN is a bad meme. Take the guy below me that thinks jokes on HN "require higher levels of intelligence to parse". It's the same mentality that part of the Rick and Morty fan base gets made fun of for.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#303
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for linking that. TIL: sorting rank is a function of timestamp and votes, so when the mods push a story back to the front page, instead of special-casing the behavior, they just (get a computer to) fabricate a submission timestamp that puts the story in appropriate place on the front page. It's a clever hack, alright, but dang if I didn't start to think I was going crazy, because something felt off with timest…

It's not a great solution because it confuses the people who notice. The problem is that it's even more confusing if we re-up posts that say "3 days ago" or whatever onto the front page. Then the threads fill up with "why is this 3 days ago post on the front page"? Another option would be to clone the old submission into a new one, but then we get more dupes. And I don't know of any viable fourth option.

Maybe display the old timestamp, but also display a visible "re-up" tag next to it? This way it'll be obvious the submission was reinserted manually to give it a second chance.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#304
post #300
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a great solution because it confuses the people who notice. The problem is that it's even more confusing if we re-up posts that say "3 days ago" or whatever onto the front page. Then the threads fill up with "why is this 3 days ago post on the front page"? Another option would be to clone the old submission into a new one, but then we get more dupes. And I don't know of any viable fourth option.

Fourth option - don't show dates or timestamps at all. The age of the actual article is what matters, and people can find that out by actually reading the article. Would that not be viable?

I think there's a lot of information in those timestamps. They convey the rhythms of the site. Of course that's also why fudging them causes confusion...

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#305
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a great solution because it confuses the people who notice. The problem is that it's even more confusing if we re-up posts that say "3 days ago" or whatever onto the front page. Then the threads fill up with "why is this 3 days ago post on the front page"? Another option would be to clone the old submission into a new one, but then we get more dupes. And I don't know of any viable fourth option.

Maybe display the old timestamp, but also display a visible "re-up" tag next to it? This way it'll be obvious the submission was reinserted manually to give it a second chance.

Well that's certainly a fourth option! I'll think about it.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#306
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed on not creating silos. Adding User 'flair' is perhaps a viable option, where users can simply tag other users with a short description. That enables both properties - avoiding discourse you find troubling, and allowing users to highlight those that they find enlightening. Freedom of speech works well when paired with freedom to listen. Removing content (even if only from a user's view) only deepens the filter…

> Agreed on not creating silos. There's one big silo, with the people who have stayed within it, and the people who have left outside it. There aren't very many women here, which I assume is because of how the HN conversations about issues important to women tend to play out. This isn't an HN-specific problem, it's industry-wide. But I didn't go into software until my 30s, so the gender skew of the industry feels ali…

I hear this from time to time about people who have left, and obviously that matters, but it's hard to get any reliable information (let alone data) about it. Can you say more about this part though?

> there are other perspectives which are more important to me which I'm already missing out on

What perspectives are you thinking of?

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got told repeatedly that I "knew why" I was rate limited, but never given an actual explanation. Then it was lifted. Go figure.

The actual comment does not match your story. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16268353

Oh really? I'm curious, I've kept all the emails. Did you read those emails, and if so, how? Do you know why I was rate limited?

The thread he referred to wasn't actually one I started. I made one comment in it. dang stated that "I'll try to give you more of a response later when I have time", but this never eventuated.

Incidentally, it was a very difficult time of my life, so I was genuinely reaching out to find out what I had done. His responses didn't help. I don't intend to comment further.

Edit: redacted a small part of this comment. It's unlikely to have been helpful, and it's unlikely the one I'm responding to would care.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#308
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what impressed me when I first came across HN - the signal-to-noise ratio. The comments sections were always filled with thoughtfully written comments that provided useful insights into interesting topics. Thank you @dang for your diligence and commitment to the task.

Hot take: the fact that HN comments have an academic/professional tone doesn't make the noise go away. It just makes it easier to pass for useful comments. On huge threads with like 1k comments, I do find that the high quality ones float to the surface (having more to do with stuff like hiding vote counts and restricting down vote access IMO). However, it's not hard to find people confidently talking out of their ass…

To make a distinction, my comment applies specifically to the comments that pertain to technical topics and that which are backed by actual (scientific) research and data.

I have no interest in the cultural warfare that supposedly educated ideologues seek to impose on society at large.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#309
post #32

Thanks dang! You've helped keep HN readable, corrected countless title and link errors, and prevented heated discussions from devolving into fights. I also am super thankful for your help getting my "Show HN" post to the front page. We all appreciate you.

Yes, sir! Thanks!!!

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#310
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Agreed on not creating silos. There's one big silo, with the people who have stayed within it, and the people who have left outside it. There aren't very many women here, which I assume is because of how the HN conversations about issues important to women tend to play out. This isn't an HN-specific problem, it's industry-wide. But I didn't go into software until my 30s, so the gender skew of the industry feels ali…

I hear this from time to time about people who have left, and obviously that matters, but it's hard to get any reliable information (let alone data) about it. Can you say more about this part though? > there are other perspectives which are more important to me which I'm already missing out on What perspectives are you thinking of?

Thanks for taking an interest. Using women as an example again:

Women are by and large outside of the HN uni-silo, and I feel their absence keenly. The thousandth go-round on James Damore is going to play out very differently in a majority female community or a community with gender parity than it will in a mostly-male community like HN.

I don't imagine that the "powers that be" at HN wish for the community's gender skew. However, I don't think that you can counter the powerful forces at play in the wider tech industry without imposing controls on debate which you would find philosophically incompatible with HN's mission.

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