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California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

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Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#301
post #9

This has been an interesting battle in terms of civil governance. Basically Uber & Lyft threatened to put the initiative they wrote, on the ballot if the legislature passed AB5, which they did. Uber and Lyft are now doing everything they can to get it to pass which will set up its own court fight. Watching this fight I wonder "Who is in charge of governing California?" is it the Legislature/Governor or is it special…

> Watching this fight I wonder "Who is in charge of governing California?" is it the Legislature/Governor or is it special interests who can spend enough to put bespoke laws into effect and make bespoke changes to the state constitution?

Neither.

It's the people, who, after all the spending choose both the legislature and the governor, and choose the results ofinitiatives and referenda, and who have, on making all those choices, time and again defied the balance of spending.

> California didn't help itself when it implemented term limits which had the unpleasant side effect of never having any legislators with enough experience in the job to know how to really get things done, and so the "work" of writing laws has also fallen to special interests.

Special interests have proposed and drafted laws and offered them up to the legislature since long before term limits, legislators (both before and after term limits) do draft their own a decide which, wherever they originate, to support, either as written or with amendments. And while term limits as implemented in CA do overall moderately weaken the elected legislators compared to unelected interests (professional staff as well as lobbying groups), it's a fairly modest effect; the median legislator is probably about as strong as before, but no one builds up the kind of institutional power that someone like Willie Brown had.

> This has never been more clear than the last 4 years where California has had a single party in both houses, and a Governor and still cannot legislate anything that special interests oppose.

This is obviously untrue in the literal sense, as most legislation has special interests both supporting and opposing and plenty has passed in the last four years.

If you mean it in some non-literal sense, then I can't fathom exactly what that might be.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#302
I think it's safe to say many Californians should start preparing for life without ride-share. Assuming Prop 22 does not pass, the most likely outcome seems to be Uber and Lyft will simply shut down operations for the time being, if not for good. They have already signaled they are willing to do this before this appeal, and they are explicitly saying this is the most likely outcome in the media.

The philosophies of both sides have been debated ad nauseam. Regardless of what side you take, the reality is these new regulations are effectively going to get many drivers 'fired'. I don't hear much discussion about this. It seems folks on the side of making them employees can't imagine a world where Uber and Lyft will simply shut down.

Of course, those who are anti prop-22 have the drivers best interests in mind, but nobody's lives will be improved if they are denied the ability to work at all. We have to take that into account.

What happens when 22 fails, and all those drivers are out of work? What happens when millions of users who are used to being able to dial up fast, affordable rides on the drop of a hat, suddenly lose this ability? It's going to be painful for all parties involved.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#303
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>California has the curve ball of the proposition system. That is where special interest is most heavily felt. This court ruling is mostly meaningless. There is a proposition on the ballot that directly addresses this employment/independent contractor issue. It would supersede the legislature and make it nearly impossible for the legislature to repeal or amend the law. The prop also happens to have the most expensive…

On the other hand, California also created a bill that targets two companies specifically; kind of its own special interest if you will. We saw how quickly they started carving out exceptions once the original bill was passed and comedians couldn’t perform, and journalists started getting let go. Why not just pass the bill and call it the “Uber and Lyft must pay their drivers like employees and let them act like inde…

> On the other hand, California also created a bill that targets two companies specifically

No, it didn't.

AB5 codified a court decision with much broader impact than to those two companies, and in doing so exempted a few other impacted industries from it, leaving more than those two companies, and more than the industry they are in, still affected (whether you count the bill and the court case together, such that the impact is those not exempted, or separately, so that it is those exempted.)

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#304
post #302

I think it's safe to say many Californians should start preparing for life without ride-share. Assuming Prop 22 does not pass, the most likely outcome seems to be Uber and Lyft will simply shut down operations for the time being, if not for good. They have already signaled they are willing to do this before this appeal, and they are explicitly saying this is the most likely outcome in the media. The philosophies of b…

They should just shut down now and then those pained parties will vote for 22.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally: 100% counter to what virtually every Lyft driver who drives full-time has told me. Data-wise: Where is your evidence? I thought that by now, the free market would have solved all of the above problems? Philosophically: No one's job should be dependent on tips. Tips ALWAYS are filtered via biases that tap into sexism, racism, xenophobia, and never a financially responsible way of building an economy. Vote…

How do so many programmers commenting online, who can easily make $150k+ if not $350k+ a year, feel so qualified to weigh in on what’s right and wrong for low skilled, low wage workers, when it goes specifically against these people’s own wishes? Is it a matter of guilt? You feel guilty for having a decent paying job when not everybody does, and this seems like a silver bullet to fix everything? A majority of drivers…

It's similar to a lot of the people voting yes on 23: they want to stick it to the dialysis companies. I get that, but how is the prime consideration here not patient care? Drives me crazy how people will gleefully ignore the potential patient effect in favor of "punishing" corporations.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#307
post #304
post #302

I think it's safe to say many Californians should start preparing for life without ride-share. Assuming Prop 22 does not pass, the most likely outcome seems to be Uber and Lyft will simply shut down operations for the time being, if not for good. They have already signaled they are willing to do this before this appeal, and they are explicitly saying this is the most likely outcome in the media. The philosophies of b…

They should just shut down now and then those pained parties will vote for 22.

I don't live in California, but If I remember, Uber actually did shut down briefly while they were filling this appeal?

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The proposition that made California the way it is is the one that meant that the primaries are non-partisan and the final race is between the two top contenders. No, it's not. It's not even a proposition. It's that the California Republican Party tries to campaign like it's Kansas, that keeps them hovering right at the border of the level where Democrats have a 2/3 supermajority in both houses plus control of the…

You have basically said that the republicans are simply bad in the state because they “campaign like it’s Kansas,” which is ridiculous because candidates are always local. That type of dismissiveness of an entire party is exactly the issue.

> You have basically said that the republicans are simply bad in the state because they “campaign like it’s Kansas,” which is ridiculous because candidates are always local.

The state party officials (and party aligned interest groups) have a big impact on candidate grooming, funding, selection, and messaging, and the influence they exert results in campaigns that are ineffective in much of the state. And it wasn't always that way, and it didn't because of the jungle primary change (Schwarzenegger was an exception to it, but not because he was before the jungle primary, but because he came through a route entirely outside of the party system, despite being a party member; the effect had already set in, though it wasn't yet as deep as it is now.)

> That type of dismissiveness of an entire party is exactly the issue.

You are confusing cause and effect.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#309
post #71

AB5 has been a total disaster. The number of special cased carve-outs is ridiculous - it's not a normal law. Obviously AB5 was hacked together by some special interests (unions maybe - what is history?). It's totally unworkable. The carveouts that keep coming are the sign of this - how many are there now, anyone have the list? And yes, I'm a maxed out dem donor. If AB5 is the way workers rights are going to be advanc…

> The number of special cased carve-outs is ridiculous - it's not a normal law. I looked up AB5 [1] and read about the "carve outs" last time the topic came up, among several other. It's far shorter than other nontrivial bills and I couldn't find a single one that didn't specifically mention a superseding precedent or specialized State or Federal law that had supremacy regardless. For example, the primary exceptions…

AB2257 added significantly more exemptions.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#310
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always say this whenever this comes up, but, the number of duis since Uber has been operating have dropped precipitously. I don’t want to be on California roads late at night without Uber.

I don't care if uber can't pay back their VCs and goes under because of this ruling. There is a model that has shown to have a service people want and are willing to pay for, the market will find the right price with a different company. Drunk driving reduction has been a good thing about these services, but it doesn't need to be uber.

After you remove the VC funny money subsidy, prices will probably be right around what taxis are today. And we'll be right back where we started. At least there's a nice phone application now and I don't need to call someone to send me a taxi.
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