How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry • Hacker News Board

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#301

Post by brushfoot » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 12:34 PM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #271

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Many reasons: - The typical 'pains' felt in the lopsided power relation between employer and employee were and often still are cushioned by the adequate compensation in a market where the sought after skills were in short supply - Tech attracts an atypical more autism spectrum biased employee pool. This correlates with meritocratic believes. - Tech culture is one that has always idolized 'passion', so objecting to ba…

That's quite a strawman. You're saying that those who disagree with tech unions are:

- Autistic

- Uneducated and naive ("real soon now," presumably said with a folksy twang)

- "Very young"

- Too cowardly or ethically naive to object to bad working conditions

Here's a more charitable possibility: Opponents may just not see the need at this point. Or they may dislike union culture.

Unionizing isn't all positive. There are costs that go beyond union dues. You're establishing what in many ways is a more exclusive culture. And you may end up stifling innovation. That shouldn't be a tool to be used indiscriminately.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#302

Post by username90 » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 12:42 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #286

username90 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that a person can just study programming on their free time for a few years and then get a job paying hundreds of thousands of dollars a year is proof that at least in some cases meritocracy works. All you need is proof that you are great at programming, doesn't have to know anyone or have any kind of prestigious background to do it. That is what I did. I studied programming for a bit, started getting among…

Remember this post the next time there is a 500 post thread about how hiring is bs or promotions are all politics. That cannot possibly jive with the system being a meritocracy.

I don't think everything is perfect but striving for meritocracy isn't problematic in itself. The ideal should always be "given what we know of each candidate who is expected to deliver the most value in this position?". I don't see how anyone can disagree with that. And in general it seems like companies and countries with more meritocratic systems tend to do better, so as a system it seems to work great.

"Meritocracy" as a word is sometimes used by corrupt people, but that is like North Korea calling itself a democracy, it isn't a problem with meritocracy.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#303

Post by naveen99 » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 12:44 PM UTC

Funny thing about unions is that they are common when the employer is the state: police, teachers etc. so you have a union which is formed to represent employee rights against a bigger union of the people which includes the same employees as citizens.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#304

Post by bsenftner » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 12:45 PM UTC

brushfoot wrote: post #301

PeterStuer wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many reasons: - The typical 'pains' felt in the lopsided power relation between employer and employee were and often still are cushioned by the adequate compensation in a market where the sought after skills were in short supply - Tech attracts an atypical more autism spectrum biased employee pool. This correlates with meritocratic believes. - Tech culture is one that has always idolized 'passion', so objecting to ba…

That's quite a strawman. You're saying that those who disagree with tech unions are: - Autistic - Uneducated and naive ("real soon now," presumably said with a folksy twang) - "Very young" - Too cowardly or ethically naive to object to bad working conditions Here's a more charitable possibility: Opponents may just not see the need at this point. Or they may dislike union culture. Unionizing isn't all positive. There…

I was "that guy" at EA during the "EA Spouse" era that tried unsuccessfully to get any union effort started at all. The strawman list above only needs one proponent per developer group and no one in that group joins the effort. I'd say the "ethically naive" trait is the strongest.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#305

Post by qsort » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 12:47 PM UTC

brushfoot wrote: post #301

PeterStuer wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many reasons: - The typical 'pains' felt in the lopsided power relation between employer and employee were and often still are cushioned by the adequate compensation in a market where the sought after skills were in short supply - Tech attracts an atypical more autism spectrum biased employee pool. This correlates with meritocratic believes. - Tech culture is one that has always idolized 'passion', so objecting to ba…

That's quite a strawman. You're saying that those who disagree with tech unions are: - Autistic - Uneducated and naive ("real soon now," presumably said with a folksy twang) - "Very young" - Too cowardly or ethically naive to object to bad working conditions Here's a more charitable possibility: Opponents may just not see the need at this point. Or they may dislike union culture. Unionizing isn't all positive. There…

> That's quite a strawman.

It's quite a popular strawman, unfortunately. Tech workers are almost universally despised in leftist circles.

(disclaimer: I work in tech, hold left-leaning views and I actually believe some form of unionization in tech would be beneficial)

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#306

Post by jondubois » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 12:48 PM UTC

naveen99 wrote: post #303

Funny thing about unions is that they are common when the employer is the state: police, teachers etc. so you have a union which is formed to represent employee rights against a bigger union of the people which includes the same employees as citizens.

I think unions make sense for any organization that has a or near-monopoly. I'm surprised that they are not more common among big tech corporations.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#307

Post by bsenftner » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 12:53 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #281

skitout wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there are some horror stories about unions, but you are just generalizing. And you are talking about "old" institutions ; new unions, for "new" kind of companies would not look the same. Having an organization that can help a worker that is abused, or giving more bargaining power to workers seems clearly positive for the worker. That could be a bit more irritating for the top management ... But the German exampl…

> but you are just generalizing No he's not. Every unionized workplace I have been in from educational institutions to government departments to defense contractors is like this to a pretty large extent. >But the German example Yes, I know that European unions are different and not nearly as asinine as American ones but I have yet to hear anyone say that tech will get European style unions let alone a good argument f…

American style capitalism has polluted the mental models of anyone raised in the States to disregard European management styles and by extension the successful European work life balance, to the US citizens' significant determent. The work-life balance in Europe is more of a life worth living, while the life styles in the United States require double incomes to participate, are so heavily marketed it rendered everything expensive in either dollars, social credit, political credit or when not "playing the game" complete social isolation. Life in the United States is close to ruined, we have close to no community beyond these online peeps into the darkness.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#308

Post by x87678r » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 12:54 PM UTC

m12k wrote: post #259

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Especially the video game industry should take a good long look at how Hollywood uses guilds to create saner work conditions for its various production crew. It's a very different thing to work at a 'stable' company with sustained engineering and maintenance, and then getting hired for part of a project at a one-big-project-ever-two-years production company, that might not exist a couple years from now. The sooner th…

Hollywood unions are one of the main reasons most movies are not made in LA any more.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#309

Post by Mvandenbergh » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 12:54 PM UTC

I always find it hilarious that tech people think that a tech union would be like the teamsters or autoworkers union rather than the entertainment industry unions given that the latter already have provision for people with widely varying skills and compensation.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#310

Post by fennecfoxen » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 12:56 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #298

pjc50 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general term for everyone having to join the union is "closed shop". It was apparently outlawed in the US in 1947: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_shop so I'm not clear how that's still happening. It was declared illegal in the EU in 2006: https://www.internationallawoffice.com/Newsletters/Employmen...

There is no difference between between being forced to join and being forced to pay the same dues and follow same rules. That is why right-to-work laws is important, the law in 1947 did nothing to stop it.

Yeah, the union agreement gives the union money whether or not you're a member.

This was recently ruled illegal in the public sector (Janus v. AFSCME), because of first amendment concerns (the state is forcing you to pay money for union lobbying).

This hasn't resulted in a drop in membership, in no small part due to many unions adopting freakishly Byzantine opt-out measures, e.g. the ones where there's a certain window of 10 days a year that you can leave (computed relative to when you signed your union card, never advertised by the union — and if the employer even mentions these rights the union might attempt legal action under California law which forbids their employer from doing anything to "deter or discourage public employees from becoming or remaining members").