One hour of slow breathing changed my life • Hacker News Board

Re: One hour of slow breathing changed my life

#301

Post by waihtis » Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 2:52 PM UTC

acituan wrote: post #293

waihtis wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have multiple problems with this statement. First, the problems you are describing are external to breathing. If you suffer from PTSD and get an episode at the grocery store, do you want to regulate grocery store visits also? Second, breathing has multi-thousand year old legacy spanning multiple cultures and eras touting it's benefits. Why would you obtain your perspective from a click-driven Vice article referring…

You're fighting several strawman arguments but I am still going to assume good faith. > If you suffer from PTSD and get an episode at the grocery store, do you want to regulate grocery store visits also? I am not talking about triggering based on some external stimulus. I am talking about a nilly-willy prescription of a pscyhoactive exercise that has a non-trivial chance of interacting/activating pre-existing conditi…

I don't subscribe to scientism, so best end the debate here.

Re: One hour of slow breathing changed my life

#302

Post by vidarh » Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 4:31 PM UTC

acituan wrote: post #296

vidarh wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Changing nothing can backfire too. The problem with this line of thinking is to assume that inaction is not also a choice that affect you.

You don't go through your medicine cabinet and try everything there because "changing nothing" can backfire. You read/learn about the complications, side-effects, adverse reactions and make an informed decision based on that. Inaction argument is a strawman, I'm not arguing for doing nothing at all, I am just against informal prescription of rather potent, psychoactive exercises without due respect, especially in the…

No, but people frequently do change things like diet, sleeping patterns, exercise etc. on the basis of seeing whether they work for them.

And people often harm themselves immensely through inaction in the same areas.

People also change their breathing patterns all the time, or don't, without knowing what they're doing or not doing.

You're advocating a line of thinking that simply is not how most people live their lives, and never will be, because it would paralyse us.

Re: One hour of slow breathing changed my life

#303

Post by nprateem » Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 4:46 PM UTC

bayindirh wrote: post #250

barrenko wrote: post #249

Breathing works, just as basic spirituality. But, further you get into cultish stuff and "spiritual" experiences because you're basically restricting oxygen. In Zen they even warn of it.

I practice Zen and, after certain point you don't even watch your breathing. You just become aware of it. So, you restrict nothing. Unfortunately meditation and spirituality is a very sharp and two edged sword. You need to find the correct people alongside the correct path. In our way, there's no Spiritual Experience (TM) . You just become aware of the issues in your life and with yourself, then you try to solve them…

Advanced Zen practitioners most definitely do report what many would call spiritual experiences. The difference is they let those experiences go instead of chasing them or attaching much significance to them.

See for example the later chapters of "The Mind Illuminated", or the excellent "Science of Enlightenment" audio talk by Shinzen Young.

Re: One hour of slow breathing changed my life

#304

Post by vidarh » Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

acituan wrote: post #246

MetalGuru wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source for second paragraph claim?

A good meta study is: Lindahl et al (2017). The varieties of contemplative experience: A mixed-methods study of meditation-related challenges in Western Buddhists. This vice article recaps it: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/vbaedd/meditation-is-a-po... I'll list just the titles of select deep dive citations from the first study to give an idea, you can find detailed citations in the paper itself; - "Meditation-in…

Looking up just one of the papers in your example [1], and it looks far from convincing.

The paper is about the correlation between two separate manic episodes after meditation with two different methods. It further cites other papers - but in common for them is episodes occurring after meditation in patients with severe mental illnesses who in several cases are off their medication.

The paper goes on to give a case study of the patient, who had a manic episode the first time after a full weekend yoga retreat, and secondly again two months after entering a Zen retreat that she had been associated with for two years.

Notably there's no evidence of causation at all, of course, but more importantly there is also no reliable pattern of repetition despite her persistent involvement with meditation:

She was involved in meditation extensively over a long period before the second episode, she recovered without medication and re-entered the retreat. Of course we don't know if she further episodes, but that the case study only mentions two is a strong indication.

There's no discussion in the case study about other causes other than suggesting insomnia as a result of the practice as a possible cause. But the paper does not present any information to suggest any data on sleep deprivation was collected from the patient.

Maybe the other papers are more convincing, but this paper basically boils down to:

* Some reports of correlation have been made.

* Here's another example of correlation... Where the second incidents happened months into intensive practice, and with patient going back into intensive practice, yet no suggestion it happened more.

If anything, the low number of incidents the author uncovered has further convinced me of the safety of meditation. Maybe people with serious mental illnesses should be a bit careful.

[1] Mania precipitated by meditation: a case report and literature review, Graeme A. Yorston.

Re: One hour of slow breathing changed my life

#305

Post by gonehome » Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 5:05 PM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #298

gonehome wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of evidence that exercising is healthy and helps people improve their mental state so that analogy doesn't work. The point is if someone says they're getting a benefit from something that doesn't have a ton of evidence around it - my first instinct would be to be skeptical but curious. When someone takes that skepticism and implies that the "far bigger and more pressing problem" is that I can't determin…

> There's a lot of evidence that exercising is healthy and helps people improve their mental state so that analogy doesn't work. There's actually a lot of research out there. Did you try to search for any? It's not scepticism to compare something you cannot believe because you haven't bothered to investigate, with well known falsities such as crystal healing. Not only does the research support the existence of a nasa…

Thanks for the links, a lot of interesting stuff there.

I think this is actually a good example of the point I'm trying to make.

There appears to be an underlying mechanism here that's worth understanding that may have real effects. None of this suggests that left nostril 'relaxation' and right nostril 'energy' is a real thing. The closest may be that last link which I don't have access to.

The reason understanding the underlying mechanism is important is because it allows you to differentiate what could be real (potentially switching airflow in nostrils because "the olfactory system maximizes the ability of its distributed receptor neurons to encode differentially absorbing odors.") and what is pseudoscience "you could choose to be either energetic or restful by picking one nostril to breathe out of for awhile.".

The latter sounds suspicious to me and these links don't seem to really support it. I'm extra suspicious when there's a strong interest in motivated reasoning (yoga-affiliated people being bought into it) to find it correct. It doesn't mean it isn't true, but it's less likely to be so.

The cycle can still be a real thing, there may still be real effects, and the left/right relax/energy thing can still be nonsense. That's why understanding what's going on is useful.

Re: One hour of slow breathing changed my life

#306

Post by onemoresoop » Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

seer wrote: post #271

onemoresoop wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are different degrees of congestion from light to fully blocked. When I was 14 I was 80% congested until i turned 20. I had to have some nose drops or I’d be lightheaded from poor breathing. What solved it? A trick that an old doctor told me to do. With one hand hold with thumb on the soft palate and another finger (index or ring) on the forehead where the nose meets the forehead in a grip. Then jiggle the grip…

My partner has some sinus congestion issues and we’ e been trying to find a remedy since forever. We want to try this thing but want to make sure we’re trying it correctly. Have you encountered a more thorough explanation of this technique, preferably in a video?

Somethink like this except that it is done with the tongue and a finger:

https://invisiverse.wonderhowto.com/how-to/clear-your-stuffy...

I need to clarify that i did not have a sinus infection though, i had a persisting rhinitis for which doctors could not provide anything else but prescribe over the nose drops or flonaise

Re: One hour of slow breathing changed my life

#307

Post by acituan » Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

waihtis wrote: post #301

acituan wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're fighting several strawman arguments but I am still going to assume good faith. > If you suffer from PTSD and get an episode at the grocery store, do you want to regulate grocery store visits also? I am not talking about triggering based on some external stimulus. I am talking about a nilly-willy prescription of a pscyhoactive exercise that has a non-trivial chance of interacting/activating pre-existing conditi…

I don't subscribe to scientism, so best end the debate here.

You could indeed end debating with the strawman.

Contrasting merits of scientific processes with traditional knowledge is not scientism. If anything claiming tradition is an infinitely robust source of knowledge is some sort of dogmatism.

Re: One hour of slow breathing changed my life

#308

Post by qnsi » Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

divan wrote: post #275

If anyone had a chance to read a book – is it just exploring and describing observation about breathing or it attempts to answer how different breathing actually works and effects the health? I remember watching this amazing TEDx talk which gives an on state demonstration of how breathing directly affects blood flow / pulse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xc3XdOiGGI There is another interesting video I've watched y…

I am at the beginning of the book, but for my taste it's too much storified (if that makes sense). He talks a lot about how he found something out and his personal experience with learning about breathing.

Also similar to OP here [1] I was super curious about his claim that you can influence a lot of stuff in your body by picking one nostril you breath with. I googled for confirmation and wasn't satisfied with the results. Later he also recommends oxygen deprivation (breathing very shallowly while running and warns about blackouts)

He doesn't cite studies in a usual science like way. So I decided I won't read the book in full.

Hope this helps.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23980094

Re: One hour of slow breathing changed my life

#309

Post by lostmyoldone » Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

maroonblazer wrote: post #173

abendy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people with anxieties or other fear-based conditions typically will breathe way too much. So what happens when you breathe that much is you're constantly putting yourself into a state of stress. So you're stimulating that sympathetic side of the nervous system https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/05/27/8629631... > you can over breathe when people at a gym or when people are jogging you see them really go…

I heard Nestor's interview with Joe Rogan, was intrigued and I decided to try it on my runs (~7 miles 2-3x per week), where I typically breathe through my mouth. While running I breathed exclusively through my nose. My expectation was that I wouldn't be able to sustain it for the entire duration of the run. Surprisingly I was able to. Overall I felt less winded that I typically do when breathing through my mouth. I t…

I never get runners high, but have always attributed that to me just being weird, as usual. Ever sunce I was little I have a habit, reflex, or whatever one should call it, to breath quite slowly and deliberately during any extended exercise. Never thought it could be related, but maybe it is?

Re: One hour of slow breathing changed my life

#310

Post by isbjorn16 » Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 5:46 PM UTC

irthomasthomas wrote: post #262

afterburner wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don't get it. Do these people not blow their nose?

Just pay attention to it during the day. It alternates left to right with a short time in the middle when they are both open.

I literally spent most of the day after reading this yesterday testing, and they were identical (or near enough as made no difference). Today, same thing.

That's my point - you probably never thought it was any other way, and I never thought it was any other way, and we're both just like "wait, what? you LIVE like that?" That fascinates me! I think the last time I experienced this was the blue/black white/gold dress thing or when I first found out some people wipe standing up and some people wipe sitting down and everyone is shocked when they find this out for the first time.