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University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

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Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#301

Post by sien »

danhak wrote: post #124
mc32 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I’d like to see is freezing grade inflation. A more normal distribution curve for grades rather than an abnormal amount being rated A/A+.

Why does this make any sense? Generally speaking, students at top universities are intelligent and hard-working. Their talent is not normally distributed, and this is increasingly the case as admissions becomes hyper-competitive. Not to mention, students self-select into courses to which they are most suited and likely to perform well. If all students in a particular class master the subject matter, why should some s…

It's what is done in Australia. It works pretty well.

Failing grades are not handed out this way, if you demonstrate a basic understanding of the material you pass. But actually getting an HD, the top mark, is only for the top 20% or so from each class.

It means in Australia for a technical subject if you get First Class Honours you can get into a PhD program and get a scholarship and get through in 3 years if you work hard.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#302

Post by newbie578 »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #250
SiempreViernes wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is in the context of a free education system, the only thing the poor students loose is a bit of time.

A year is A LOT of time, and you have to explain why you lost a year later on. Also, even in "free" education systems, some taxpayer is going to ask "why the hell am I paying for 2/3 of crappy students, can't you just raise the bar at the beginning, and only accept the top 1/3?"

A year is a lot? Then what is 5 years, a lifetime? Let's not fool ourselves, a year is NOTHING, it passes as soon as it arrives. There is nothing bad with people "loosing" a year or two, or perhaps even more.

In an ever more pacing world, we should readjust and look back, some might "sacrifice" a year, but they also learn valuable experience so not all is lost.

Today, when people's work time can last 50 years easily, what is a year or more? Let people "search for themselves". Let them try out the hard things, let them explore and value experience, realize if something is for them or isn't.

In the end, we learn most from our mistakes, not successes.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#304

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

bananabreakfast wrote: post #109
Shoue wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finland, often touted as the best in education, does not use SAT. The same can be said for many other European countries with excellent education. Are you implying there is no correlation? Have you looked at their systems before making a claim such as "haven't come up with anything better"?

European entrance exams, including Finland's, are far, far worse than the SAT. They are much more serious and shape one's life far more and enforce systemic bias to much higher extreme.

Can't speak for all European countries as Europe is very diverse, but in Spain it's perfectly possible (and lots of people do it every year) to get top marks in the "selectivity" (entrance) exam after going to free public elementary and high schools. My partner grew up in a dairy farm, her parents have no degrees, she went to a small school in her small town in the middle of nothing, and she got into a medicine degree, which is one of the degrees with highest grade threshold. And it's not a unique story, it's quite common. So I don't think there is that much systemic bias. Especially if you also factor in the fact that tuition is cheap, or even free if your income is not high, so student debt isn't a thing either.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#305

Post by wastedhours »

barry-cotter wrote: post #275
gowld wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me learning doesn't hurt you.

But lowering the standards does. And that’s the only way you’re going from a pass rate of a third to 100%. You might be able to double pass rates to two thirds by putting many more resources into teaching but that costs money or comes out of research time/teacher satisfaction. You learning does hurt the top of the class if you’re a marginal student. Students on the verge of failure take up a lot more instructional an…

If they were going to get through anyway, then where's the harm in then diverting some attention to bring others along too?

Also, from the context given here it's not as black and white as pass vs non-pass or "lowering standards" - it's about a rolling cut off on the amount of students they can take.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#306

Post by dataduck »

mnky9800n wrote: post #295
barry-cotter wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But lowering the standards does. And that’s the only way you’re going from a pass rate of a third to 100%. You might be able to double pass rates to two thirds by putting many more resources into teaching but that costs money or comes out of research time/teacher satisfaction. You learning does hurt the top of the class if you’re a marginal student. Students on the verge of failure take up a lot more instructional an…

What's wrong with spending more time on helping struggling students?

That it inevitably means dropping the most challenging i.e. most valuable parts of the course? Not only are resources not infinite; if you make them accessible to worse students, that necessarily means removing the parts which are inaccessible.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#307

Post by kortilla »

danhak wrote: post #124
mc32 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I’d like to see is freezing grade inflation. A more normal distribution curve for grades rather than an abnormal amount being rated A/A+.

Why does this make any sense? Generally speaking, students at top universities are intelligent and hard-working. Their talent is not normally distributed, and this is increasingly the case as admissions becomes hyper-competitive. Not to mention, students self-select into courses to which they are most suited and likely to perform well. If all students in a particular class master the subject matter, why should some s…

> rank students on increasingly marginal criteria or to...educate?

You can still educate perfectly fine while making the assignments and tests very difficult. Do students attend schools to get A’s or to get educated?

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#308

Post by dataduck »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #304
bananabreakfast wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European entrance exams, including Finland's, are far, far worse than the SAT. They are much more serious and shape one's life far more and enforce systemic bias to much higher extreme.

Can't speak for all European countries as Europe is very diverse, but in Spain it's perfectly possible (and lots of people do it every year) to get top marks in the "selectivity" (entrance) exam after going to free public elementary and high schools. My partner grew up in a dairy farm, her parents have no degrees, she went to a small school in her small town in the middle of nothing, and she got into a medicine degre…

My understanding is that this is also true of the SAT, apart perhaps from the cost of tuition.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#309

Post by kortilla »

danhak wrote: post #139
mc32 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the average score should be a 2.0 GPA. If that university has a better fount of students then an A at that uni is better than an A at another uni. Don’t worry, institutional reputation is already a thing, so that’s not a problem. Grade inflation means you have no idea how poorly of well someone is because everyone gets a “participation” score.

You just used different words to re-state the same assertion that achievement should be shoehorned into a normal distribution regardless of students' actual performance. Why? > Grade inflation means you have no idea how poorly of well someone is because everyone gets a “participation” score. As I argued above, a high GPA is not a "participation" score, it is an achievement score. It just happens that achievement at t…

> It just happens that achievement at top universities is generally high across the board.

Happens at lower universities as well. Turns out the cause isn’t “high achievement” but instead it’s entire generations of students that treat anything lower than an A as a failure and subsequently pressure admin to make the prof back off.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#310

Post by codeisawesome »

newbie578 wrote: post #302
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A year is A LOT of time, and you have to explain why you lost a year later on. Also, even in "free" education systems, some taxpayer is going to ask "why the hell am I paying for 2/3 of crappy students, can't you just raise the bar at the beginning, and only accept the top 1/3?"

A year is a lot? Then what is 5 years, a lifetime? Let's not fool ourselves, a year is NOTHING, it passes as soon as it arrives. There is nothing bad with people "loosing" a year or two, or perhaps even more. In an ever more pacing world, we should readjust and look back, some might "sacrifice" a year, but they also learn valuable experience so not all is lost. Today, when people's work time can last 50 years easily,…

I sometimes wish I could remember that a year is a short time. I’m often wracked by guilt about not progressing at sub-yearly “ticks” on some aspects.
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