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Work-from-home boom leads to more surveillance

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Re: Work-from-home boom leads to more surveillance

#301
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably not difficult to work around these checks but nobody should be suffering this indignity in the first place. People can't even go to the bathroom without getting called out by managers over lost productivity. How dehumanizing.

And it's not even effective. There's a quote from one of the more known Total Quality Management evangelists, which stuck with me(paraphrased): "Don't engage in games with your employees, because you can't win." He elaborates further explaining that any scheme or incentive system created for a specific behavioral outcome is bound to be exploited or otherwise worked around.

TQM is all about how you need to fix the system, not fix the employees. If you can't trust your team, then no amount of bathroom-break-monitoring is going to make things better...

Re: Work-from-home boom leads to more surveillance

#302
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the benefit of assuming things about other people whom you do not know? I brought what clothes I had previously purchased myself from a minimum wage job I held for a few years prior. Growing up, if we wanted something, we worked for it (physical labor beginning around age 13). After moving out, I didn't eat much/well for a while there and got into debt because I didn't have a stable job/steady income for year…

"What is the benefit of assuming things about other people whom you do not know?" It forces those with troubled egos to share. There is nothing more certain in life than telling someone they haven't had it hard enough to bring up their hardship story. You are thinking through your own len. If I was able to make it everyone else should too. Quit your job immediately if you are unhappy or not getting paid enough is wha…

The beauty is we get to decide and choose every day - even you do!

Re: Work-from-home boom leads to more surveillance

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we need to make this 8 hour bar die. I think I get where you're coming from but I'm at the point in my career where I like work/life balance and do not give a shit about your email once I've turned off work (unless it's an emergency, obviously). If this doesn't happen, work creeps into life until that's all it is, no fun, no exercise, no fresh air, no social interaction, no family time - and all the negative mental…

> I'm at the point in my career where I like work/life balance and do not give a shit about your email once I've turned off work... We aren't disagreeing here... my point is not that you should work 24x7, rather... throughout my career I've noticed that value and hours are not correlated. Therefore, it strikes me as really silly to be so focused on hours worked in fields where that metric doesn't matter . I'm not say…

>eliminate hours as a measure of productivity and instead focus on the productive output of our work.

Yes, totally agreed here. We're talking creative and analytical output, not cloud compute cycles.

Re: Work-from-home boom leads to more surveillance

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> poor management. Uneducated decision making There is no "poor management". What are these uneducated decision makers even doing at your place of work? There's always a boss. The boss is paying for the behavior they want to see. Now if you argue the ultimate boss is clueless, then, what are you even doing there? You might want to tell yourself that your immediate boss who calls you every 30 minutes you are away from…

You've been speaking of bosses, but I think the topic is of management. A subtle difference, but alas this is not word-play. A "boss" does not work for you, "management" works for you.

I don't know what I even meant by this. Management doesn't work for me except for when those goals coincidentally align with my own. Piss off.

Re: Work-from-home boom leads to more surveillance

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've been speaking of bosses, but I think the topic is of management. A subtle difference, but alas this is not word-play. A "boss" does not work for you, "management" works for you.

I don't know what I even meant by this. Management doesn't work for me except for when those goals coincidentally align with my own. Piss off.

How cute... telling yourself off.

Re: Work-from-home boom leads to more surveillance

#306

I own a small business, and all of us, my employees and me work from home. We've been doing this from well before the COVID-19 epidemic. My team is mostly programmers with a one marketing person. This sort of intrusive monitoring is utter garbage. My team would quit if I used it and in any case, I don't want to know what they are upto by the minute. I don't even encourage realtime slack unless we've mutually agreed t…

Nothing about your business sounds like it reflects the rest of the white-collar working world.

Not sure what part of the white-collar working world you are in. But my work experience at every one of the companies I worked at prior to starting on my own, were not dissimilar. All of these companies were in the Fortune 500 when I was in their employ, and none as I can recall had surveillence of this nature. They were intense work environments, I grant that, and deadline pressure in tech and Wall street, is strong, but nobody surveilled me in this manner. Cameras in the corridor yes. Strictly controlled access to critical code repositories and databases -- yes. Keystroke monitoring and keeping webcams on -- no. Indeed, at IBM Research, one of the places I worked at, a stroll through the building at around 3pm would probably the quietest thing you ever did. I'd see pople aimlessly playing at table tennis, and the dicussion after the game over tea would turn to the research problem they were working on. Ideas would flow, some would peel away to scribble on a whiteboard. Others would just take a print out of a paper and sit in the lawn reading it. And yes some would be in their rooms typing away... These were some of the most productive computer scientists in the world, many of them now work at Google and other places you'd be familar with. (They did suck at table tennis though :-) Many pure tech startups are not that different, although the pressure levels are much, much higher. You cannot determine a technical person's productivity by the time they spend at the keyboard. It's in the kind and quiality of the software they release, that entirely eliminates the need for whole classes of time-card workers.

If you need surveillance in this situation, you've got the wrong person -- folks like this self-selct themselves to work in these places. They are intrinsically motivated by the problem that interests them. No amount surveillence software will improve their output, if they are not interested in the problem -- they'll just quit.

Re: Work-from-home boom leads to more surveillance

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had the same experience in the midwest early in my career. Underpaid, overworked, our boss expected us to work weekends without any extra pay because we "all needed to pitch in". Corporate culture in the midwest is horrifically outdated.

Yep, an obsession with (the appearance of) "hard work" and "frugality" combined with hardcore nepotism is the Midwestern way.

oh boy, nepotism is rampant. It might as well be a written rule, if your father works as a director, you can expect his kid gets to run a department for 6 figures a year

Re: Work-from-home boom leads to more surveillance

#309
post #308
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope! Really, no reason to protect the guilty here. It was AdKnowledge.

Maybe the experience is regional then, just a shot in the dark.

I understand!

It's definitely a popular line of thought. Though having worked in multiple areas of the US, I don't think it is. You won't need to look hard in SF, NYC, or London to find corporate leadership that doesn't really consider engineers to be humans like them.

Is it possible people are looking for patterns in noise?

Personally, I find the purported cultural commentary of others on offer here to be an uncomfortable echo of the cultural snobbery one hears daily offered by Californians to the "flyover states".

Re: Work-from-home boom leads to more surveillance

#310
post #309
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the experience is regional then, just a shot in the dark.

I understand! It's definitely a popular line of thought. Though having worked in multiple areas of the US, I don't think it is. You won't need to look hard in SF, NYC, or London to find corporate leadership that doesn't really consider engineers to be humans like them. Is it possible people are looking for patterns in noise? Personally, I find the purported cultural commentary of others on offer here to be an uncomfo…

You may be on to something; I will say I have enjoyed the cultural aspects of my west coast jobs very much more so than my east coast and Midwest jobs, but that is not probably some form of bias.
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