Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#301

Post by tomatocracy » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #258

tomatocracy wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that nothing's wrong with making the choice to be a stay at home mother (or father), especially when children are very young and not at school. But as a society we have organised ourselves in such a way that this choice is economically and socially much harder to make than it used to be and in my view much harder to make than it should be. One of the problems in particular is that it is far too hard for peopl…

>But as a society we have organised ourselves in such a way that this choice is economically and socially much harder to make than it used to be and in my view much harder to make than it should be. Sounds to me like we should make a conscious effort to reverse the changes that have been made lately, then, and also take a hard look at the motives of the people that have pushed us in that direction. >One of the proble…

The difficulty of coming back from a career break is a problem because it turns something which needn't be a binary or one off choice (stay at home with children vs work) into a binary and irreversible choice. And I'd bet that those who feel forced into that choice choose career over staying at home with their children more often than the other way around as a result.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#302

Post by jawns » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

nickbauman wrote: post #292

I don't know what it's like in the Nordic countries but here in the US I walk down the street with a 4 year old on my shoulders to work every day to drop her off at school. The women I pass on the street and in the halls beam at her when she greets them and sometimes they exchange a few words. The men? They don't notice her: she's edited out of their minds eye like she doesn't exist, even if she cries "HULLOOO! My na…

I'm a dad of 3, and I do acknowledge other people's children with a wave or hello. But prior to becoming a father, I felt very nervous about doing so, because so few men do give children attention (outside of family members) that I worried that parents would wonder if I had bad intentions.

But hey, fellow men, guess how we break down that stigma? It's by having a lot of normal, everyday guys acknowledge children's existence in friendly, wholesome ways -- even if it's just a wave or a quick greeting.

If a greater percentage of men would do this, then there would be far less nervousness about undeserved, incorrect assumptions.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#303

Post by bunchOfCucks » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

Sweet paid vacay! I love modern equality.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#304

Post by KillerRAK » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

I love a good, "X Nordic Country provides Y for FREE -- so should the United States!" Where Y is some socialized benefit.

Let's put this in perspective: Finland's population is around 5.5 million people. That's somewhere between the populations of South Carolina and Minnesota.

Get a grip people -- The United States is not even remotely equivalent to Finland in terms of demographics and population. Find a nice U.S. State that doles out great Parental benefits, and move.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#305

Post by seneca » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #283

growlist wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worth pointing out that in the midst of this brave new world - where every woman is supposedly a kick-ass world-beating entrepreneur if only the damned patriarchy would get off her back - there are plenty of women that have zero interest in having a career, and see the point of their existence as being to have children and be a mother to them; and the erosion of wages as a consequence of womens' entry in…

> and the erosion of wages as a consequence of womens' entry into the workplace has actually taken away the choice of being a full-time mum for many, by forcing them to work. I don't buy this narrative, sorry. Also, of course women who want to stay at home taking care of the babies while the father is less involved in child-rearing are perfectly welcome to do it. It's just that I think it's unfair that society expect…

> I don't buy this narrative, sorry.

I think you may have missed their point, as there's not much to "buy". I hadn't considered it before, and it strikes me as interesting. I believe what they're saying is that women being introduced into the work force en-masse, and therefore nearly doubling the working population, has driven down wages. The lower wages made it harder for a single bread-winner to support a family, which then makes it more difficult, or impossible, to have a stay at home mother. I'd love to see some data on this.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#306

Post by arbitrage » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #111

The US, federally, already gives dads he same parental leave as moms. (It's crap, but it's the same crap.)

In letter, yes. Try claiming it and see what happens.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#307

Post by OCASM » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

Modern mainstream feminism is based on the ideas of tomboy lesbians. Until that's corrected any attempts to promote motherhood as equal or better than careerism will be considered misogyny.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#308

Post by kzrdude » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

Nimitz14 wrote: post #214

the_af wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagreed. Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The problem is breastfeeding, but there are ways around that (and some mothers, for a variety of reasons or impediments, don't breastfeed; in that case it's completely moot). So minus breastfeeding, the asymmetry has a large component of "it was always done like this", plus the mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is s…

A counterpoint: A friend of mine had a kid a year ago and he found it impossible to take care of the baby when he tried being the caretaker while the mom was away (can't breastfeed, milk in a bottle is not the same). The experience has convinced him equal parental leave is a terrible idea.

Finland and Sweden don't only offer equal parental leave. The leave time is shared, and can be distributed mostly as desired (up to a 80/20 split).

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#309

Post by root_axis » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

willis936 wrote: post #86

Many comments laud this as a step towards gender equality, which is a noble goal. However, I do wonder about the unforeseen consequences. All mammals (afaik) are raised by mothers. Humans are mammals. Humans do a good job of making changes to our nature, and for the most part those changes have resulted in better lives. However we still have things like nuclear families. Children aren't taken away from parents and ra…

Ever seen or known someone who grew up with an absent father? It makes a big difference in their lives despite what you might intuitively assume about mother/child relationships.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#310

Post by psychometry » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

KillerRAK wrote: post #304

I love a good, "X Nordic Country provides Y for FREE -- so should the United States!" Where Y is some socialized benefit. Let's put this in perspective: Finland's population is around 5.5 million people. That's somewhere between the populations of South Carolina and Minnesota. Get a grip people -- The United States is not even remotely equivalent to Finland in terms of demographics and population. Find a nice U.S. St…

Among the things you fail to understand is that GDP will generally scale with the population. You wouldn't be trying to pay for U.S. parents' leave with Finnish tax revenue.