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Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

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Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#301

Post by jjtheblunt »

rlucas wrote: post #291
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Big centralized platforms (youtube, Reddit, the chans, HN to some exent) mean that the internet riff raff (i.e. people with no interest in the niche and who may feel like trolling) are free to show up in any given niche area of the platform (e.g. a subreddit or someone's channel) and then shit all over it. A community that would have been perfectly peaceful on a newsgroup, IRC channel or forum now has to con…

The corollary to this that remains unspoken about the OP's thesis is: because of the mass reach of the major platforms, the "toxic" effects now have escaped being an internet-only phenomenon and now are manifesting in meatspace. It's overly reductionist to attribute Trump and Brexit just to online trolls, but it's folly to ignore their effect at the margins (because both Trump and Brexit were relatively close calls,…

"meatspace" : what an apropos description

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#302

Post by godshatter »

grumple wrote: post #157
samatman wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, except for the scale, and the fact that it's infected the mainstream media, and the accelerants making it even worse, it's the same old thing? So we can summarize as "there's been a huge uptick in the toxicity online (which was always there)?"

You’re asserting that it’s worse like that’s a fact. It’s not. It’s much better than the old days now that many accounts are tied to your real name, and since enforcement of community standards became commonplace. The US political polarization is more widespread, on and offline, but online discourse is still pretty mild compared to the old days of greater anonymity.

I'm not sure that's true. I remember when "netiquette" used to be a bigger thing than it is now. People would lurk for a while before posting to get a feel for the community. Flamewars would happen if someone top-posted instead of bottom-posting. Debate still happened, and some of them would spiral out of control, but I wasn't nearly as afraid to mention my opinion about such a wide range of topics both on the web and in real life as I am now.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#303

Post by dsfyu404ed »

ticmasta wrote: post #253
fragmede wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anonymity isn’t it, or isn’t all of it. YouTube comments were deanonymized but that didn’t improve discourse. Look at Facebook and some of the “discussions” about politics there. Newspapers tried running comment sections, but either they’re a cesspool, real names or no, or they just gave up having comment sections entirely. Even locale isn’t a help - NextDoor is full of the same, or worse, combative vitriol. Sure, ch…

The deciding factor seems to be if the internet group (as in characteristics defining cohesion) has strong enough mores to demand acceptable conduct. wide-open commenting (anon or not): NO. Neighbourhood FB group: you'd hope so, but not always...

I'm on one forum where the only rules are "leave family other than spouses out of it" and "no n-word". It is a hobby interest forum with a gender homogeneous user base. It's one of the most civil places on the internet if you can get past the fact that any mistake will be remembered and you will be made fun of for it. There are definitely some people who hate each other over ideological differences but they seem to tire of arguing and just ignore each other. I think small enough group size for people to remember each other and no reason for people without the shared interest to stick around matter more than anything else.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#305

Post by kazinator »

rlucas wrote: post #291
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Big centralized platforms (youtube, Reddit, the chans, HN to some exent) mean that the internet riff raff (i.e. people with no interest in the niche and who may feel like trolling) are free to show up in any given niche area of the platform (e.g. a subreddit or someone's channel) and then shit all over it. A community that would have been perfectly peaceful on a newsgroup, IRC channel or forum now has to con…

The corollary to this that remains unspoken about the OP's thesis is: because of the mass reach of the major platforms, the "toxic" effects now have escaped being an internet-only phenomenon and now are manifesting in meatspace. It's overly reductionist to attribute Trump and Brexit just to online trolls, but it's folly to ignore their effect at the margins (because both Trump and Brexit were relatively close calls,…

On traditional Usenet there is a kind of unspoken rule about never taking online disputes offline. Everyone was supposed to understand that it's just a game.

A good portion of the ragamuffins who are overflowing the online world have not such concept. Everything is personal.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#306

Post by meheleventyone »

ideonexus wrote: post #226
organsnyder wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And one of the sides has to be right. Sometimes the facts are difficult to ascertain, but so many of the lies spread via social media are easily disproved by consulting primary sources.

> but so many of the lies spread via social media are easily disproved by consulting primary sources. I wish this were true. I used to post snopes links and primary sources to Baby Boomer posts on Facebook, but it's hopeless. They either don't trust the fact-check, can rationalize it away, or just don't care. One of the most shocking realizations of my adult life has been learning that a very large portion of my othe…

And a whole bunch of people that see the minority or unpopular opinion as more valid because of it.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#307

Post by epx »

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #32

Stop responding to it. No seriously, just stop. This isn't a "complex problem that needs nuanced technical and legislative solutions". Back in the old day, there was this saying. "Do not feed the trolls". Sadly, we've forgotten that. Our current approach is, "create rigorous 30 minute point by point take down videos to defeat their point of view". Our urge to debate and correct people who are wrong just fuels them ma…

+1. These days, if someone tries to steer me into some sort of polarized political discussion, I give my hourly rate and ask to be paid upfront.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#308

Post by tayo42 »

kody wrote: post #287
JohnFen wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't help but remember (through my biased lenses of course) when most of the web (that I visited) looked like 4chan. Interesting. I don't remember the web (or the pre-web internet) generally looking like 4chan in the earlier days. Pockets of it always did, of course. But we are both engaging in a statistical error here -- we're using sample sizes of one. Your experience and mine may differ quite a lot simply bec…

It really is interesting that our anecdotes can be so different. I'm assuming you're older than me (25) since you mention the pre-web internet, so I'd also guess that by the time you were on the web/pre-web internet you would've had a more developed filter than I. My introduction to the web progressed roughly with watching my dad use BBS -> playing Neopets and Runescape -> becoming very involved with Runescape forums…

What video game forums compared at all to 4chans /b/?

Every where banned you for gore, child porn, harassment, encouraging suicide.

I really don't think you should be trying to normalize 4chan as thats just the way the internet is.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#309

Post by quotemstr »

iso1631 wrote: post #89
tengbretson wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might find that the people you see posting and repeating these lies see the things that you post and repeat as lies.

The biggest problem from the last 10 years is the spread of "everyone's entitled to an opinion". It seems that objective truth no longer exists in the eyes of the population. This is both a cause and a consequence of the defunding of journalism and the change of the profession from news to views.

Isn't everyone entitled to an opinion though? What you're hitting on, I think, is that the so-called "toxicity" of the internet is just broad disintermediation. Previously, a few people controlled the public narrative. Now, everyone does. Turns out most people don't very much like the worldview that the media elite pushes.

Journalism is dying because it's become not only useless as a means of information dissemination --- new media is better at that --- but also because journalists have become contemptuous of the public. They have only themselves to blame.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#310

Post by scottlocklin »

krilly wrote: post #295
scottlocklin wrote: post #77

>I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. You're crazy my dude(tte). I've been on the interbutts since 1991 and Usenet days, and it's exactly as it always was. The big difference is we have reporter ding dongs on Twitter thinking Twitter, aka the comments section they removed from their web presence, is the real world. Also old people on Facebook who never learned the lessons of being…

I can assure you the YouTube rabbit hole is still there. I am constantly recommended right wing, feminist b& type vids

Not for me; it just tries to show me Joe Rogaine videos all day. One damn video did this! I want to punch the guy who sent it to me. Oh wait, guess I've been radicalized.

FWIIW all the chimping in the threads about death threats: these were extremely common in the old days of Usenet too. I've lost track of them; from all kinds of arguably insane people, satanic cults even; more recently lunatic grad students mad I made fun of their field on my blog. So was doxxing. Nothing ever happened, and I have no respect for people who report them like it's news. While it's probably happened by now that someone's internet beef turned into actual violence, the ratio is absurdly low. If you can't abide some idiot being mad at you, stay off the internet I guess.

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