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I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

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Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#301

Post by gwbas1c »

vidanay wrote: post #12
vsskanth wrote: post #4

Serious question: how does a parent deal with their high school kids wanting to pursue college in a field with a low probability of high lifetime earnings (art, theatre etc.) ? Especially when they are middle class without generational wealth to insulate themselves

Drop the "follow your dreams" rhetoric and have a serious discussion with them about the costs of life and lifestyles. If they want to live in a 6000 sq ft house in Malibu, then they shouldn't get a degree in 5th Century Aerobics.

> Drop the "follow your dreams" rhetoric

The most important part of "follow your dreams" is to not let your imagination run away. You can get very close to what you want in life if you take a realistic perspective and understand basic finance.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#302

Post by tptacek »

tmpz22 wrote: post #103
jseliger wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College, for most people, is a joke College is great for the right people but we should be emphasizing vocational education and apprenticeships for many more people. Someone who doesn't want to do the reading or do abstract symbol manipulation is a poor fit for universities: https://seliger.com/2017/06/16/rare-good-political-news-boos... . I know because I've taught many students who don't want to be in school and ar…

The problem with vocational training that /r/personalfinance and similar forums trumpet is that it often points directly to manual labor which leads to severe physical decline and often injury. I hope industries such as plumbing, welding, HVAC, construction, etc. have improved and now teach best practices for safe lifting, mandatory physical therapy, and enforce them - but I don't think they do. Effectively what we'r…

I see this argument, about physical demands, a lot, and I don't understand how it's coherent. Somebody is going to do these jobs. Is the argument that it's not fair for kids who could go to college to be that person?

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#303

Post by bonoboTP »

helen___keller wrote: post #41
toolslive wrote: post #11

What I don't understand is: why don't they go to a university in Europe? I just checked for my alma mater: tuition fee is ~500 euro for 1 year. You pay about 4k in rent per year (this is probably too high an estimate). The level of education is high, and the programs are available in English.

They don't market nearly as effectively. They don't appear on rankings for top colleges. They don't send leaflets and no one you know goes there. The only European Uni I knew was oxford, and I had no idea that I could save money on a similar education in Europe. In the first place I just assumed I would need to know a foreign language for any non-UK European school.

> They don't market nearly as effectively

It's not in the interest of any European government or university to get flooded by American (or any other foreign, non-EU) students. The only reason some German states haven't introduced a fee for non-EU residents yet is probably that their number is not that high yet. But some other German states have already set up such extra fees. Some other countries place fees on English-language programmes, while those in the local language remain free.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#304

Post by starpilot »

criddell wrote: post #8
vsskanth wrote: post #4

Serious question: how does a parent deal with their high school kids wanting to pursue college in a field with a low probability of high lifetime earnings (art, theatre etc.) ? Especially when they are middle class without generational wealth to insulate themselves

I've suggested to my kids that they study two separate areas. I think it makes you stand out in a very good way if, for example, you have a dual computer science / art history degree. I'm lucky though because my kids are dual US-Canada citizens. They can go to university in Canada and it's very inexpensive.

I asked a mechanical engineer in hiring if a double major on a resume made any difference to him. He said that if the major was not related to engineering, he really didn't care about it. They're paying you to be an engineer, nothing more. I studied Russian and in aerospace engineering in the US, employers absolutely did not care about it. I now resent the time/money spent on that coursework, and wish I had taken stats or CS, maybe dabbling in Russian on my own time.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#305

Post by scarface74 »

criddell wrote: post #143
scarface74 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we pay for college for an area that won’t return a positive ROI just so they can be a “better citizen of the world”?

How are you going to measure ROI? Back 2011 the Freakonomics guys said this: > According to the College Board, a year of tuition at a public college for an in-state student costs an average of $7,605, while a year at a private college costs an average of $27,293. Meaning that (assuming you graduate in four years) a college diploma from a public school costs about $30,000, and about $109,000 from a private school. Tha…

In that case, what’s wrong with the people who benefit from the education paying themselves? In a capitalist society, Journalism degrees should cost less than a STEM degree.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#306

Post by tmpz22 »

tptacek wrote: post #302
tmpz22 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with vocational training that /r/personalfinance and similar forums trumpet is that it often points directly to manual labor which leads to severe physical decline and often injury. I hope industries such as plumbing, welding, HVAC, construction, etc. have improved and now teach best practices for safe lifting, mandatory physical therapy, and enforce them - but I don't think they do. Effectively what we'r…

I see this argument, about physical demands, a lot, and I don't understand how it's coherent. Somebody is going to do these jobs. Is the argument that it's not fair for kids who could go to college to be that person?

> Is the argument that it's not fair for kids who could go to college to be that person?

Spot on. When I make that argument its from the perspective of me at 18 with the options to do either. I think you're making an important counter point that many don't have the option to begin with, due to money, citizenship, parental/child care, relationships, illness, education level, etc. - although scholarships heavily target most of those demographics.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#307

Post by oarabbus_ »

honkycat wrote: post #98
hajile wrote: post #71

And here we have once again why the government shouldn't be subsidizing student loans and shouldn't exclude them from bankruptcy. We need to quit incentivizing sub-prime loans. Unlike the housing crash where the houses retained most of their value and could be sold later, you can't sell your degree to pay back the money. If you're getting a necessary degree, it's very uncommon to default on your loan because you'll b…

I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as "pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make. Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability. I wasn't very academic growin…

Trade school is a good, viable path, but you do make a good point.

Ask an old electrician what they want their kid to be, and (excluding the scenario of a family business) it's usually "not an electrician"

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#308

Post by fzeroracer »

tptacek wrote: post #297
snowwrestler wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might come as a shock, but AOC is a member of Congress now. (It's silly to judge the value of a college education by the jobs that people get the first few years after college.)

Well, that covers 435 Boston University grads. What about the rest of them?

Couldn't the same be said about any level of education? The law of averages means that yes, on average not everyone is going to see massive success.

That doesn't meant we should deprive them the right to get an education.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#309

Post by oarabbus_ »

Kinrany wrote: post #273
everdev wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a 4-year college, but earned almost all of my money from self-taught programming and design skills. It's hard to justify the ROI on college. At $25k/year for a low-tier college, you'll spend $100k (if you don't need loans). If you take that $100k and put it in the market (avg. 7% annual returns) with 0 contributions for 45 years, you could spend every penny you make and retire at 63 with $2.1M. At more expe…

> I went to a 4-year college, but earned almost all of my money from self-taught programming and design skills. College has other benefits like signalling and networking though.

Eh, unless you're going to Stanford, Duke, or an Ivy League (or maybe USC or $REGIONALLY_RENOWNED_SCHOOL), the networking is definitely not worth the price tag.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#310

Post by vorpalhex »

aspaceman wrote: post #293
vorpalhex wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It benefits us as a country to have an electorate who can read and write and have a basic understanding of civics and history. It doesn't necessarily appear to benefit us the same way to have a bunch of folks spend 4 years getting English degrees to make mom and dad happy. There are a lot of benefits to college, but a lot of those benefits go away when college stops becoming a choice and starts becoming mandated stat…

Why the criticism of an English degree? It's an important, critical and incredibly useful subject. Especially in our increasingly connected and writing-centric world. You get an advanced workforce by making it advanced in all aspects, not just the ones that you arbitrarily value.

There's nothing wrong with an English degree if you intend to use it and have a career path with it in mind. Unfortunately I have no shortage of friends who went with college because they were expected to, got an English degree because it was easy, and now work dead end jobs they dislike.

While I'm picking on English degrees because it's easy pickings, it's not unique. Take any degree, throw enough people at it and you'll end up with a lot of degree holders not having career paths open to them.

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