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Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

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Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chernobyl plant, according to officials speaking before the disaster, also was so sure that it could be built on the Red Square. Those savants were nowhere to be found during the disaster. You play the usual card of nuke proponent, which is to describe things just as if not emitting carbon during energy production implies nukes. This is not true. Many renewables, mainly wind and solar, are pertinent. This is abso…

I like anecdotes. I like data better. Nuclear is a very safe energy source compared to the majority of what powers the world, period. Wind and solar are also extremely safe. Wind is very low carbon, about 11 gCO2-eq/kWh. Solar PV is a bit higher, around 40. Hydro varies dramatically from excellent to terrible based on biogenic methane emissions (region dependent). Fracked natural gas is abhorrent with >400 gCO2/kWh,…

If any of my serious argument is an anecdote just point at it, I will provide a source. I don't think I'm irrational and would be grateful to anyone pointing out some dubtious material of mine given as a solid argument.

The total impact on health (and therefore the real costs) of the nuclear industry will only be known when the last site will be completely decommissioned and the last waste innocuous.

Low carbon countries are high in nuclear because none of them really invested into renewables. Concluding that nuclear must be part of the mix is at best weird. Especially given that there are very few new nuclear powerplants projects, many of them failures (very over-schedule and over-budget), and that the capital intensity induced by a fair proportion of the few new potential projects condemns them, given that the TCO of renewables is quickly getting lower and lower.

The political side is also grim for nuclear plants, probably mainly because of the NIMBY effect. Most ongoing nuclear powerplants building in progress were ordered by nondemocratic countries (France and Finland being among the rare exceptions, however many in France argue that the democratic process ("débat public") is not really applied upon nuclear matters). This may reflect an 'undue failure', i.e. public opinion may be wrong about this and maybe should forget about NIMBY, however this is at least a failure to communicate as in many countries the official lenient message isn't in favor, and many people just don't want any nuke powerplant. This is not absurd, as the "everything is under control, the risk is infinitesimal" message is seriously shattered by disasters.

As for transport electrification and fuel cells are indeed potential solutions, however even more remote in time than an infrastructure-oriented approach. Generalizing new types of powerplants nationwide cannot be done quickly, costs large amounts of money, and implies trade-offs (see Germany at work, and this nation was lucky because the decision to effectively switch wasn't totally out of the scheduled cycle of nuclear powerplants decomissions, reducing the losses). Modifying the energy architecture underlying a significant proportion of transport means is an even (much) more difficult target.

I hope that thermal solar can be sufficient to provide to fuel cell (no nuclear powerplants necessary), and see no sign of being wrong.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like anecdotes. I like data better. Nuclear is a very safe energy source compared to the majority of what powers the world, period. Wind and solar are also extremely safe. Wind is very low carbon, about 11 gCO2-eq/kWh. Solar PV is a bit higher, around 40. Hydro varies dramatically from excellent to terrible based on biogenic methane emissions (region dependent). Fracked natural gas is abhorrent with >400 gCO2/kWh,…

If any of my serious argument is an anecdote just point at it, I will provide a source. I don't think I'm irrational and would be grateful to anyone pointing out some dubtious material of mine given as a solid argument. The total impact on health (and therefore the real costs) of the nuclear industry will only be known when the last site will be completely decommissioned and the last waste innocuous. Low carbon count…

> I don't think I'm irrational and would be grateful to anyone pointing out some [dubious] material of mine given as a solid argument.

> The total impact on health (and therefore the real costs) of the nuclear industry will only be known when the last site will be completely decommissioned and the last waste innocuous.

Allow me to point out that this argument can be defeated easily with a relatively simple thought experiment. Your claim is that the impact of a health hazard cannot be assessed until the health hazard itself has spontaneously become innocuous. Radiological hazards are fairly unique in their characteristic of becoming innocuous with time. Compared to analogous hazardous materials, say for example, mercury. Mercury is a well-known neurotoxin. It was always a neurotoxin and it always will be. This was used in household thermometers for decades until too many kids broke them and became injured. So we banned them, moved the hazard out of ready access, and now fewer people get mercury poison. Clearly, we can make this assessment even though the mercury still exists somewhere, and is still a neurotoxin.

Et voila, this impossible goalpost you have set up crumbles by reductio ad absurdum.

Nuclear waste is a hazardous material. When it is moved out of reach, we can assess the health hazard. We have done this over the past 60 years of nuclear operation and the numbers are in. Here they are: https://ourworldindata.org/what-is-the-safest-form-of-energy (yes this doesn't list wind and solar. Yes wind and solar are extremely safe too. That's why we need more wind, solar, and nuclear).

It saddens me when people eschew considering the expansion of our natural nuclear resources of Earth in order to save human civilization from climate change. But that is a choice they are free to make.

You mention Germany again. Recall that Germany quite literally and unambiguously chose to kill about 1000 extra people per year with air pollution from brown coal rather than continue to operate their high-quality nuclear assets. This appears very difficult to defend. How can one defend this seemingly inhumane choice? Was it thought that continuing the nuclear plants would possibly kill more than 1000/year? In this case it very literally is a choice between brown coal and nuclear. Germany chose coal. I find this shameful.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#303
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.sbsun.com/2019/02/28/san-bernardino-county-board... > And, if you’re building the cheapest energy source possible it must therefore have a high EROI. That's only true to the degree that the energy cost of building an energy system is directly proportional to the dollar cost, which is often very not true.

It’s got nothing to do with dust storms: https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-san-bernardino-solar-... This is simply pure NIMBI issue which also hits nuclear power. “That's only true to the degree that the energy cost of building an energy system is directly proportional to the dollar cost, which is often very not true.” This is an economic argument if X$ buys you K energy from the cheapest energy source it buys s…

> It’s got nothing to do with dust storms

From your link:

"They came from high desert communities such as Daggett, Joshua Tree and Lucerne Valley, where existing solar projects are seen by many as eyesores that destroy desert ecosystems and fuel larger dust storms."

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the radioactivity make fluorine gas?

Radiolysis. https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/4109510 The MSR saw some of the fluorine react with UF4 to make UF6, which is volatile. There is the potential for fuel to be volatilized and transported elsewhere in the reactor system, causing possible concern for criticality accidents.

Apparently this only happens if the salt gets below 80°C. A temperature that the salt would reach around a year after every external heating is turned of. At this time the radioactivity will also be much lower. Furthermore uranium 235 has a very long halve life and radiates very little.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False dichotomy. Iran can solve their energy needs with a new type of reactor that cannot be used to produce weapons (like the Thorium based reactors being developed). On the top of that, you cannot solve a country’s energy need purely with solar. Finally why picking on Iran? As far as history goes there is only one nation that deployed nuclear weapons in a war situation. This same nation wanted to deploy nuclear wea…

The idea that Thorium reactors cannot make weapons is a persistent myth propagated by an overenthusastic group of non-expert internet thorium proponents. It is part of a wider (and in my opinion misguided) scheme led by Kirk Sorensen to rebrand advanced nuclear as "Thorium". Thorium reactors necessarily breed Uranium 233, which is a phenomenal weapons material. In fact, in 1994, the USA declassified a memo from the c…

If you want a fission weapon, its easier to start with raw granite than convert Uranium from Thorium into a weapon.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If any of my serious argument is an anecdote just point at it, I will provide a source. I don't think I'm irrational and would be grateful to anyone pointing out some dubtious material of mine given as a solid argument. The total impact on health (and therefore the real costs) of the nuclear industry will only be known when the last site will be completely decommissioned and the last waste innocuous. Low carbon count…

> I don't think I'm irrational and would be grateful to anyone pointing out some [dubious] material of mine given as a solid argument. > The total impact on health (and therefore the real costs) of the nuclear industry will only be known when the last site will be completely decommissioned and the last waste innocuous. Allow me to point out that this argument can be defeated easily with a relatively simple thought ex…

After a nuke disaster collecting all wandering dangerous material is 'difficult', to say the least. Much more difficult than recalling thermometers! And there is no way to ''ban' them in order to see them gently come back in some cask. See the Cherno and Fuku cases.

After such a disaster some wandering radionucleides induce solid cancers developing in the 10 to 15 years afterwards. A silent and stealth killer, nothing fun.

Hot nuclear waste is the most hazardous material as it is dangerous by contact, if inhaled, and also kills at a distance, in most cases without any warning. Moreover some of it remain dangerous for 10s of thousand years.

Germany is in a transition, it is trying to quit what seems to them a bad habit (nuclear), and this is never easy nor free. On the political side of things maintaining nuclear plants in activity against citizens will is dangerous, especially if some boo-boo happens (which becomes more probable as those powerplants age up).

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#307
post #297
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When society collectively decide that something suck we have a simple mechanism to fix it. We make it illegal. Theft suck. We have thus laws against it. A carbon tax in the energy sector helps but it is a rather inefficient method compared to simply keeping the coal in the ground. People keep finding ways to make profits from digging the coal out and burning it, and Sweden is currently a customer to those people. The…

The energy credit system accomplishes some things that your proposals don't. It's not realistic to make burning coal and other non-renewables illegal in Europe, less than 20% of the grid has been transitioned[1]. You can't just shut off 80% of the grid without European civilization as we know it coming to an end for the foreseeable future. In the meantime there's plenty of uses of energy that can be built in one EU/E…

> You can't just shut off 80% of the grid without European civilization as we know it coming to an end for the foreseeable future.

Good thing the Swedish energy grid is not made out of 80% coal and other fossil fuels. It is a strawman argument to talk about shutting down 80% of the whole European energy grid in the context of the Swedish energy grid.

> As an example, I live in Amsterdam

Netherlands power grid only utilize 5% nuclear power. It has no hydro. If you made fossil fuels illegal than that would indeed make civilization as you know it coming to an end. Your power grid is wholly depended on fossil fuels for keeping the light on. Even if more wind farms and solar plants was built the coal would continue to burn during still nights.

It would not however be very hard to change that. A nuclear plant, or if you prefer an experimental battery dam would solve the issue quite fast. Just a simple matter of money and political will. Given the knowledge and experience in flood control it would even be quite suitable placement batteries, pumping in water when wind production are high and the price is cheap, and producing energy when the wind is still. At most 10-20 years, and faster if the incentives were right.

Putting pollution in the sky is not morally defenseable just because you paid a higher markup on the power bill. The markup should only exist to incentivize people to invest, and the cost should be increased until it accomplish this. Since people like to claim that nuclear is currently unprofitable, the solution then is pretty simple. Raise the tax on coal energy so that even just buying coal energy during still winter nights is still more expensive than building the nuclear plant. At that point it is no longer unprofitable to run the nuclear plant. If wind+solar+battery is cheaper then go with that, just as long as the coal stay in the ground.

But for Sweden it would just be easier to ban fossil fueled energy as we have enough hydro and nuclear to get us through still winter nights. It would however force a choice between wind+solar+battery vs nuclear, rather than the current wind+solar+coal vs nuclear. The later is unacceptable from an environmental perspective.

(I will note that a law banning fossil fuel is indistinguishable from a carbon tax that is high enough to make it more profitable to build non-polluting alternative to burning fossil fuels. The fact that people still burn fossil fuel is thus a proof that the tax is not high enough).

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, but bomb waste and spent fuel rods are separate subjects. The volume of fuel rods we're talking about here is small enough that for the most part the spent fuel rods are stored on-site at the plants. Not a great long term solution, especially since the plants don't have facilities designed for it. They're in above ground casks that are lined up in the open spaces around the plant. However, long term inter…

Every technology has pros & cons, effects & residues. Coal : Effect/Pros - Energy/Cheap. Residue/Cons - C02/GlobalWarming Nuclear : Effect/Pros - Energy/Clean. Residue/Cons - RadioactiveWaste/Contamination. Where do the nuclear byproducts go currently ? Into the earth? Rivers? Oceans? 30 years ago, we switched from paper based products to plastic, to save trees. Today, we want to switch from plastic based products to…

>Where do the nuclear byproducts go currently ? Into the earth? Rivers? Oceans?

No where, because there aren't any. If you meant spent fuel if it's not reprocessed it's stored as long as needed to be less dangerously radioactive. If it's reprocessed, any radioactive elements in it that aren't useful are stored and left to decay. Present storage of things like this is on-site as mentioned above, because reprocessing mostly doesn't happen.

The amount of unusable material from reprocessed fuel is tiny, by the way.... even less trouble than storing the spent fuel rods, on the order of a handful of material from a whole fuel rod assembly.

Power generating reactors don't give off anything but electricity, heat, and spent fuel, they are zero emissions.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure I've read articles saying America doesn't currently have a permanent storage facility for nuclear waste such as spent fuel rods, and that the creation of one is politically controversial - have matters changed since I read those articles?

Mostly that for it to matter with any urgency, we'd need to actually be building new reactors. We aren't building them, so we aren't focusing on it and are instead just ignoring the issue. It's not the best decision, but given the problems of today this seems comparatively easy. It just doesn't have much urgency compared to actually building green generation capacity and batteries at scale.

Yet. If we do start building them, they'll probably be small modular reactors instead of the giant old tech ones, and those are both faster and cheaper to build.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#310
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s got nothing to do with dust storms: https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-san-bernardino-solar-... This is simply pure NIMBI issue which also hits nuclear power. “That's only true to the degree that the energy cost of building an energy system is directly proportional to the dollar cost, which is often very not true.” This is an economic argument if X$ buys you K energy from the cheapest energy source it buys s…

> It’s got nothing to do with dust storms From your link: "They came from high desert communities such as Daggett, Joshua Tree and Lucerne Valley, where existing solar projects are seen by many as eyesores that destroy desert ecosystems and fuel larger dust storms."

Yes, note the “seen by many“ which is used because there is zero truth in the statement.
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