Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says • Hacker News Board

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#301

Post by lazyasciiart » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 9:52 PM UTC

mikece wrote: post #2

I tend to be very skeptical of claims of conspiracy and conspiracy theories in general but I've yet to hear a reasonable theory to explain how Epstein could have killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility. A friend in law enforcement related a story about someone on suicide watch who managed to kill himself by eating/shoving massive amount of toilet paper down his throat and the…

In 2018, Britain refused to extradite a guy to the US because he would have been held in either this prison or it's Brooklyn equivalent (the one where prisoners were left without heat or electricity in the storm this year), and they said it was too likely that he would commit suicide given the terrible conditions and lack of care (https://gothamist.com/news/prisoners-endure-a-nightmare-gula...). Guards at this prison have been (recently!) convicted of raping or beating inmates. A few years ago a guy was beaten to death and the jail said he'd overdosed - the footage of that has never been seen either, the family is still suing the jail.

Everyone who cared knew that this prison was a hellhole with poor oversight and poor control, long before Eptstein came near it. Nobody in American politics gives a shit that people facing federal charges are (according to the UN) routinely tortured by being held here. The DoJ is "investigating" conditions at these prisons, but since they are also running them, nobody expects much. (https://theintercept.com/2019/02/09/mdc-brooklyn-justice-dep...)

The sheer ignorance that drives most of the reaction to Epstein's death is awful. Maybe a little of this righteous outrage could get spent on actually making these prisons the well-run, safe facilities people think they are, but I doubt it will be.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#302

Post by lazyasciiart » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

apetresc wrote: post #96

shadowgovt wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. The hard conspiracy theory - that some rich agent with something to lose took determined action to subvert the prison's protections and assassinate him - doesn't hold water for me. I am, however, willing to entertain the softer conspiracy theory - that people in prison (prisoners and staff) hate pedophiles and people who enable pedophilia, and the guy was, perhaps, given more opportunity than average to "fix his…

Maybe in some more run-of-the-mill cases, sure. But even the dimmest staff member must have been well aware that this particular pedophile was on the verge of testifying against an entire network of other pedophiles. If you hate pedophiles so much you're willing to risk your life/career just to let one of them commit suicide, surely you also hate them enough to wait just a little bit longer to prevent a bunch more of…

Guards at this prison have raped and beaten inmates. At least some of them have been convicted. There's no real reason to believe that they would be acting based on some kind of higher-level planning. https://gothamist.com/news/prisoners-endure-a-nightmare-gula...

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#303

Post by malvosenior » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #299

malvosenior wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that Gates was being compassionate toward Epstein? Gates hid the depth of his affiliation with Epstein until this NYT article came out. He knew it was wrong. Much more likely is that Epstein had dirt on Gates and/or connections Gates wanted.

No, it isn't wrong; guilt by association is not a civilised concept. And if someone commits a crime then the courts determine an appropriate punishment and that is the end of what gets called 'wrong'. I'm on board if you don't want to talk to convicted paedophiles - seems reasonable to me - but being judgemental of someone else's relationships is not fair.

The absolute failure of the courts to enact justice in the Epstein case is a great example of why people should think for themselves and not outsource their sense of right and wrong to third parties.

I personally do not believe that Gates (one of the most successful people to have ever lived) was naive enough to not know who and what Epstein was. I also see Gates' attempt to hide his relationship with Epstein as further evidence of wrongdoing.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#304

Post by dmix » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #299

malvosenior wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that Gates was being compassionate toward Epstein? Gates hid the depth of his affiliation with Epstein until this NYT article came out. He knew it was wrong. Much more likely is that Epstein had dirt on Gates and/or connections Gates wanted.

No, it isn't wrong; guilt by association is not a civilised concept. And if someone commits a crime then the courts determine an appropriate punishment and that is the end of what gets called 'wrong'. I'm on board if you don't want to talk to convicted paedophiles - seems reasonable to me - but being judgemental of someone else's relationships is not fair.

Thank you, the way people bring out the pitchforks merely over guilt-by-association is one of the worst parts of social media.

I swear we're going to have to relearn all of the lessons we learned over the centuries of developing civil society, all in the name of some strange utopian perfectionism we're putting on every popular person. Mob justice is rarely good justice.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#305

Post by topkai22 » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 9:56 PM UTC

jdoliner wrote: post #153

542458 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility Ken White (famous-ish lawyer and notable internet personality) puts it this way: "But your assessment of plausibility is based on your assumptions about how the system works. Those assumptions are, mostly, wrong — naive Dick-Wolf-level law-enforcement-are-competent-good-guys stuff". Prisons, particularly american prisons, are full of…

The jail that Epstein died in has had one other suicide in the past 40 years. They haven't actually lost someone to suicide 21 years, despite several attempts. They're not incompetent at all at preventing their inmates from committing suicide. So no, the statement that suicide is made practically impossible there isn't based on wrong assumptions, it's very well supported by statistics. Source: https://www.foxnews.com…

"1 suicide and 3 attempted suicides"- that's actually both an insanely low attempt rate and an insanely high completion rate/attempt.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#306

Post by malvosenior » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 9:58 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #304

roenxi wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it isn't wrong; guilt by association is not a civilised concept. And if someone commits a crime then the courts determine an appropriate punishment and that is the end of what gets called 'wrong'. I'm on board if you don't want to talk to convicted paedophiles - seems reasonable to me - but being judgemental of someone else's relationships is not fair.

Thank you, the way people bring out the pitchforks merely over guilt-by-association is one of the worst parts of social media. I swear we're going to have to relearn all of the lessons we learned over the centuries of developing civil society, all in the name of some strange utopian perfectionism we're putting on every popular person. Mob justice is rarely good justice.

There are obviously times when mob justice goes too far. I do not think Epstein is one of those cases. He was a sex trafficker for the rich and powerful. His associates should be investigated and their attempts to get the media to bury the story should be pointed out.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#307

Post by Teever » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:02 PM UTC

CharlesColeman wrote: post #134

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually very rich people have a strong incentive to hire private firms specialized in minimizing the impact of bad stuff like this, and doing so in a very discreet way. I am 100% speculating, but I'd guess that's what Jeff Bezos did in relation to his extra-marital affair, and what Bill Gates and others have been doing in relation to Epstein.

> Usually very rich people have a strong incentive to hire private firms specialized in minimizing the impact of bad stuff like this, and doing so in a very discreet way. I'd be interested in learning about what techniques they use, since they seem like something that ought to be countered.

An interesting comment that I've seen repeated and voted to the top of any post on reddit regarding the Gates-Epstein association is something along the lines of 'Gates is too aloof and nerdy to be interested in the wares that Epstein was peddling.'

I've seen it many times and it has always struck me as the kind of spin that PR firm would write and disseminate.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#308

Post by lazyasciiart » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:03 PM UTC

slimed wrote: post #178

messick wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the shorter version of Ken "Popehat" White's thoughts are: middle class white people have no fucking idea how shitty the justice system is. And it's true, based on the replies to this post. No one who says Epstein's suicide was a "practical impossibility" has been anywhere near the justice system. They definitely don't know anyone who has been on the prisoner side of it.

You're acting like Epstein was just another prisoner. People who know a thing or two about the justice system will explain to you how differently high profile prisoners like Epstein are treated. But what could I, a middle class white person, know about the subject? Are you aware that some of us are former prisoners as well?

Convicted terrorists have said that Gitmo and warzones are better than this place. It's also very used to "high profile" prisoners, like El Chapo and accused terrorists picked up in Somalia and transferred back here.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#309

Post by romwell » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:04 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #299

malvosenior wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that Gates was being compassionate toward Epstein? Gates hid the depth of his affiliation with Epstein until this NYT article came out. He knew it was wrong. Much more likely is that Epstein had dirt on Gates and/or connections Gates wanted.

No, it isn't wrong; guilt by association is not a civilised concept. And if someone commits a crime then the courts determine an appropriate punishment and that is the end of what gets called 'wrong'. I'm on board if you don't want to talk to convicted paedophiles - seems reasonable to me - but being judgemental of someone else's relationships is not fair.

>No, it isn't wrong; guilt by association is not a civilised concept.

When it comes to courts, absolutely.

When it comes to making a judgement call (and also associating with people), it's expected.

You make a choice who you maintain relationships with. You can, and will be judged by the choices you make.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#310

Post by topkai22 » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:04 PM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #151

If Epstein was about to testify against the Mob and not about expose wealthy elites and politicians I doubt any of you in this thread would discount, at all, that he was “whacked”. There’s something really gross about how his proximity to power that we, ostensibly, “like” is decreasing our collective likelihood to state the obvious.

I would, simply because he had attempted once prior to the completed attempt. That said, it is super fishy case.