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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#301

Post by deltron3030 »

iagovar wrote: post #103
deltron3030 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. A functional democracy implies that the whole has to arrange itself democratically with the parts it consists of, if not it ri…

> The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. I don't think I'm in position to have a long discussion about this in english, but I thought about it and reached no conclussion. If I'm against the Catalan independence it's basically because of practical…

Yeah, economically it would be likely a disaster without quick integration into the EU on a higher level. That's another topic, why can't the EU sort them out?

Or why can't they rejoin with Spain after trying and failing? I don't think that people would deal with a failure like that, they'd vote to rejoin, and the bond would be stronger afterwards.

I think their movement wouldn't have gotten that much steam with a legal possibility to secede though.

I'm interested in the mass psychology behind it, why Spain and their politicians think that it's a good idea to point out that the constitution of Spain and their unitarian aspects are untouchable.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#302

Post by ErneX »

snvzz wrote: post #297
ErneX wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

91% of the people of catalonia voted for the current spanish constitution back 1978, these are the rules of play for all us. Any change to that constitution should be made by the mechanisms it itself provides, and even in the case a new one is made, it'd have to be voted by the whole country in a referendum. This crisis has been provoked by irresponsable politicians that have taken shortcuts clearly out of the law in…

>91% of the people of catalonia voted for the current spanish constitution back 1978, Many of these people are dead. There was no alternative to this constitution as it happened in a very unstable climate after the death of the dictator, where the constitution was seen as the one way to stabilize the country and advance towards a democracy. >This crisis has been provoked by irresponsable politicians that have taken s…

Data is actually the Catalonian government statistics office (Centre d'Estudis d'Opinió):

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2019/07/26/catalunya/1564132750_8266...

This and all the recent catalonian parliament elections, you clearly see the split between pro independence parties and not pro independence.

The 1978 constitution is the current rule of law, it can be changed, but that needs political support in the spanish congress. If you want to simply ignore the rule of law because you don't like the constitution or "many of the people that voted for it are dead" that's your problem (sorry to be blunt, but that can't be a serious argument).

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#303

Post by sneak »

crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #195
reallydontask wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I highly value freedom of expression, and to me it is especially important to me that a code-hosting and (like it or not) a social media website holds to that value as well. This will definitely affect whether I choose Github or Microsoft in the future. Would you rather choose a company that doesn't comply with local laws? Most governments ( no doubt, yours too), want companies operating under their jurisdiction to…

I would love to see civil disobedience at a corporate level. That level of bravery is so rare and so necessary.

"Corporate level" doesn't exist when you're talking about things termed criminal. Criminal charges are levied at individuals, not companies, because companies cannot act-only people can.

It doesn't end well for the people, sadly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#304

Post by davidito »

Native speaker of Castillian Spanish here. IMO the most critical sentence in this judicial order was mistranslated by GitHub, changing our understanding of the government's request and casting GitHub's response in a more negative light (if you believe information and communication tools should be free.)

The original language in the last paragraph is "...para solicitar la retención del contenido y los datos relacionados con la investigación antes mencionada."

The Github English translation of this is (caps are mine) "...in order to request both WITHHOLDING the content and data related to the aforementioned investigation."

However, I believe a more accurate translation is "...in order to request PRESERVATION of the content and data related to the aforementioned investigation."

If you look up the Spanish verb "retener", it can have, broadly, two applicable meanings in this case: "withhold" or "preserve".

I don't believe the language in the order should have been interpreted as "withhold", because they are ordering to perform an action on the content AND the "data related to the [...] investigation." This would be IP addresses, access timestamps, GitHub account information, etc., I would presume. It doesn't make much sense to "withhold" that sort of data. It makes more sense to "preserve" it.

To me, this appears to be a request to preserve data, not to remove data.

A case can therefore be made that the GitHub decision to remove content went above and beyond what was expressed in the received written order.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#305

Post by NeedMoreTea »

kragen wrote: post #42

Governments† burn libraries. Don't create central points of vulnerability to coercion. That multiplies the effectiveness of coercive force. Create decentralized systems. Git, not GitHub. Bitcoin, not Citibank. Email, not Gmail — although we still need to free email from DNS. Never forget how the Spanish Inquisition — the origin, in the West, of these sorts of degraded "laws" against "criminal content" — treated the J…

Hyperbolic much?

> Jefferson's future or Stalin's

You know, there is an awful lot of space between the two, the entire globe doesn't need to adopt US mores on everything or is inevitably an oppressive dictatorship shipping folks off to the Siberian gulag. That kind of black and white expression of the "correct ideology" helps no one.

FWIW I happen to have a fair amount of sympathy for the Catalan separatists in light of the draconian Spanish response to a group seeking self-determination. Hopefully Spain can first achieve less anachronistic law on secession, as I generally think what the locals want is what matters most. They should have opportunity to vote for independence -- or remain part of Spain.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#306

Post by calgoo »

hummel wrote: post #199
braythwayt wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is no Catalonia issue" I beg your pardon, are you gaslighting Hacker News? I saw videos of protests. Were those fake? I have friends from Catalonia who tell me there is an issue. Are they lying to me? Whether you agree that Catalonia should leave Spain or not, whether you agree that Spain should jail the leaders of a movement to leave Spain or not, there clearly is an issue. There clearly is some dissent, some…

The protests were violent riots not supported by any political party or entity, Catalan or not. As you can see violence stopped like one week ago, and everything back to normal. For example, you can see here ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkgW7Bab1J8 ) violence blocked the university, so other Catalan students cant go to classes that day. Catalan society is not related to the protest. It is like seeing an Antifa v…

As someone living in Barcelona I can tell you that the majority of violence was caused by the Police starting to go after protestors, police provoking protestors with Spanish flags, playing the Spanish national anthem. Its was caused be a few people who always cause violence, does not matter if its a soccer game or a peaceful protest. It was caused by the central government spending years changing the law, to the point where its illegal to protest the government, unless they authorize it. Its caused by police stopping and searching people daily on the streets, confiscating anything that can hide your face, and Catalan flags. There are even cases where Spanish police officers sent to catalunya from other parts of spain have been identified with swastika tattoos.

There is a HUGE issue, where people on both sides have been abusing the system for their own gains. Both political sides know that as long as they can keep the people fighting and "hating" each other, they can continue with the corruption that exists here.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#307

Post by snvzz »

ErneX wrote: post #302
snvzz wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>91% of the people of catalonia voted for the current spanish constitution back 1978, Many of these people are dead. There was no alternative to this constitution as it happened in a very unstable climate after the death of the dictator, where the constitution was seen as the one way to stabilize the country and advance towards a democracy. >This crisis has been provoked by irresponsable politicians that have taken s…

Data is actually the Catalonian government statistics office (Centre d'Estudis d'Opinió): https://elpais.com/ccaa/2019/07/26/catalunya/1564132750_8266... This and all the recent catalonian parliament elections, you clearly see the split between pro independence parties and not pro independence. The 1978 constitution is the current rule of law, it can be changed, but that needs political support in the spanish congres…

The CEO is just an opinion poll, but it shows that there's a lot of people for independence, if anything.

The two referendums (the older non-binding "consultation", and the newer binding), along with the results of elections, and the fact the current government is pro-independence, are the best data we've got, by mere size of sample.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#308

Post by [deleted] »

droithomme wrote: post #185
cfv wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's neither impossible nor unlawful though, they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving. The fascist dictator who formed modern Spain made it so its constituent lands can expel a part of it but no one part of it can choose to leave. This is the root of why the procés is illegal, and why they are being charged as violent agitators. They are seen as young kids trying to leave their parent's house…

> they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving I wonder if the American colonies which seceded from Great Britain in 1776 received the agreement of King George or of the people of Great Britain in general. Secession without consent of the sovereign was not part of their law, so the action was clearly illegal and unethical and the colonists simply in the wrong, do you think? Also there is the matt…

[deleted]

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#309

Post by ErneX »

deltron3030 wrote: post #301
iagovar wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. I don't think I'm in position to have a long discussion about this in english, but I thought about it and reached no conclussion. If I'm against the Catalan independence it's basically because of practical…

Yeah, economically it would be likely a disaster without quick integration into the EU on a higher level. That's another topic, why can't the EU sort them out? Or why can't they rejoin with Spain after trying and failing? I don't think that people would deal with a failure like that, they'd vote to rejoin, and the bond would be stronger afterwards. I think their movement wouldn't have gotten that much steam with a le…

To the EU this is an internal matter, plus, most of the countries of the EU have regions with similar intentions (of secession), it would be like shooting themselves in the foot.

Plus new state members of the EU have to be approved by every current member IIRC.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#310

Post by ErneX »

snvzz wrote: post #307
ErneX wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Data is actually the Catalonian government statistics office (Centre d'Estudis d'Opinió): https://elpais.com/ccaa/2019/07/26/catalunya/1564132750_8266... This and all the recent catalonian parliament elections, you clearly see the split between pro independence parties and not pro independence. The 1978 constitution is the current rule of law, it can be changed, but that needs political support in the spanish congres…

The CEO is just an opinion poll, but it shows that there's a lot of people for independence, if anything. The two referendums (the older non-binding "consultation", and the newer binding), along with the results of elections, and the fact the current government is pro-independence, are the best data we've got, by mere size of sample.

There hasn't been a binding referendum because a secession referendum does not legally exists in the current constitution. If the pro-independence side calls for these referendums and we all know those are non-binding, the only turnout those will have are of those who are in favor of secession. Those results cannot be taken in any way seriously.
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