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The China Cultural Clash

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Re: The China Cultural Clash

#301

Post by zarro »

confusedhnguy2 wrote: post #195
zarro wrote: post #41

I see lots of Anti-China sentiment. I would be very careful here into not falling into their deliberate trap of making "The West" China's "Enemy". China in its current totalitarian form needs an "Enemy" to survive, without it, it has to deal with difficult internal questions which will force it to adapt and change - and this what scares them. Totalitarian governments rely on distraction and misdirection of the popula…

Westerners act like they really care about us and we are some kids who refuse to take their meds. Some of you genuinely care about us and I can appreciate that, but as a whole, I find the Westerners' altitude towards us disturbing. Reasons: 1. Knows very little about China except from cherry-picked news by Western media, but pretending to know everything about us, better than us. This makes many of your arguments bas…

This is the best response that I have gotten which I think a majority of Chinese people agree with and epitomizes my exact point that it is counterproductive to villainize one another.

Instead of letting contention escalate to coercion and violence we should focus on setting mutually agreeable rules of economic competition, and let whichever system is more successful in producing value succeed.

Important side point regarding intellectual property - our system here is also messed up and copyright/IP laws will no doubt be changed soon. The important part regarding that is setting common rules of engagement, and allowing those that are responsible for development of new methods and ideas to capture some part of the value that they created, without enforcing through the coercion of law an arbitrary monopoly. Such rules are in both of our interests, as Chinese people should also be able to capture the value that they create through innovation - perhaps why some think the innovation curve is so low in China is because there is not enough incentive for there to be more (There would be if we formed some kind of rules for innovators to be allowed to capture some value from the product/services they create).

I hope you realize, I am NOT anti-china, I am anti-Totalitarianism, because I think its not in both of our long term best interests. But I also think that if some are happy to live under what I would call "totalitarianism" I am 100% okay with that as long as I am allowed the same prerogative to chose what system I want to live with.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#302

Post by stebann »

aianus wrote: post #292
stebann wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forget the part where now all South-American economies are in crisis thanks to US forcing pet leaders to replace "corrupt" ones. Now 50 % of population in Argentina is poor (counting homeless too) thanks to US Foreign Policy, but for them is OK to maintain the 10 % becoming nastily rich while others pay the price.

Argentina is poor because they elect populist leaders who spend more money on social programs than they collect in taxes and eventually default. Same as Greece. It is entirely self-inflicted.

Not entirely self-inflicted. A) Argentina "populist" leaders didn't have to go to the IMF and they provided a good climate for small to large enterprises with the obvious limitations that country's market has. When the current administration (conservative, neo-liberal) got in, Argentina didn't have debts but was negotiating with foreigner speculators who took advantage during last crisis at the end of 90's. So the current administration (those administration you guys love) worsened all the conditions for enterprises and made impossible to invest in any industry. They also let financial and venture capital to take the country's destiny in their hands. Four years ago, defaulting was unthinkable. USA Foreign Policy has much to do with it when they disturbed the local political process. B) Social programs benefits a small part of population, and they really need it. Actually, the actual administration is spending even more than before on social programs, and they're not the "elected populist leaders" you refer. While we can discuss if the incentives are effective for producing a labor force (I think they fail miserably), we can't discuss the basic rights of people to have something to eat until better economic conditions are met. C) Taxes are the weakest part of the system, but alone didn't hamper Argentina's capabilities to made business locally and internationally. And you forget that their nature are not different from any other places taxes in the world. US provided political and ideological support for this complete mess and you should feel ashamed before talking about other countries.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#303

Post by throwaway_bad »

UIZealot wrote: post #293
throwaway_bad wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unintentionally the clearest demonstration of the clash of cultural values in the whole thread. Between harmony and human rights, it's absolutely clear to a westerner which one is more important. From your tone, it is also absolutely clear which one you would choose. > If anything I said is untrue, please correct me It's possible to only say true things and still be biased. This is probably the most common wa…

> Between harmony and human rights, it's absolutely clear to a westerner which one is more important. What have been the human rights violations from the government, aside from responses to protester violence? Labeling yourself "human rights" does not automatically make you right. > It's possible to only say true things and still be biased. This is probably the most common way of spinning a story for "fake news". Cer…

I am not immune to fake news. I think that's why I appreciated your original response so much. I wanted to see how others are interpreting the same events.

Human rights violation by china are well documented. You can look them up yourself assuming you have access to an uncensored internet. I cited disappearing people as the example that I thought was most relevant for the extradition bill.

The triad attacks are definitely real (we are in the age of smartphones after all): https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49071502

I don't think you realize how much the difference in cultural values is making it hard for us to communicate here. Westerners consider what you call "violence and destruction" to be a fair price to pay to have rights guaranteed. Fighting is necessarily ugly but shining laser in eyes is laughably tamed compared to the lengths democratic societies have historically gone to protect their freedoms.

I do understand that some people just want to go on with their daily lives and ignore the atrocities going on in the background as long as it doesn't happen to them. I am not even arguing that's necessarily wrong either, just very different from western thought.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#304

Post by crimsonalucard »

ashelmire wrote: post #33
jimclegg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the world vs China, it has always been the West vs China, European leaders' "zero sum" mentality has made it an economic target for the better part of 2+ centuries. Please don't include the majority of the world that is benefiting from a new benevolent economic actor on the block.

You're considering China to be a new benevolent economic actor? Can you explain what behavior you consider "benevolent"?

If you think unparalleled manufacturing expertise at unparalleled prices isn't an economic gain for the entire world you need to open your biased eyes wider.

Yes the west and china are economic rivals. This does not mean China has zero economic benefit to the world. To not see this is utter blindness.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#305

Post by [deleted] »

novok wrote: post #128
baby wrote: post #78

I have an interesting take on this, from knowing a bit about Chinese culture (lived there) and for having friends and coworkers who are Chinese. Culture in China is about unity. If you look at Chinese history, and if you watch Chinese movies, this is a recurrent theme. Unification through blood and war. This is the goal and China will get stronger and more stable over time. At what cost? Tiananmen, xinjiang, hk, the…

Isn't the culture more like: There were many attempts to violently force the political union of a large group of people for the ambitions of a warlord, but in the end, it never working out? The provinces have also always acted fairly independently, which is still the case today right? AFAIK the culture is more like loyalty to your family and village, and "Heaven is high and the emperor is far away". Heck even the lan…

[deleted]

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#306

Post by zepto »

yourapostasy wrote: post #289
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your trade partner isn’t practicing as much free trade as you are, but you are still making money on trade hand over fist, then it isn’t very much in your interest to fight what is still a golden goose to you. The only reason this fight has come at all is because of a bunch of displaced factory workers (and areas that did manufacturing) that have been hurt by this trade, and their government had failed to redistri…

> The only reason this fight has come at all is because of a bunch of displaced factory workers (and areas that did manufacturing) that have been hurt by this trade... As a layperson watching from the sidelines in the software world, but fascinated by welding, electrical/electronics, mechanical engineering, CNC, machining, etc. , it is incomprehensible to me why US business leaders would so willingly cede manufacturi…

You aren’t wrong at all. It’s just that it was in the short term advantage of a bunch of managers to adopt this mentality at the expense of the long term health of the economy.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#307

Post by throwawy4trueth »

surge wrote: post #120
ilamont wrote: post #17

Attempts by China to leverage market access into self-censorship by U.S. companies should also be treated as trade violations that are subject to retaliation. Thank you, Ben, for this honest appraisal which involves sticking out your neck and perhaps even harming your ability to travel to China or expand your business. Regarding this comment about Apple: And then there is Apple: the company is deeply exposed to China…

As China has become increasingly nationalistic, xenophobic, etc recently (foreigners in China are seeing more and more hostility and visits by cops, and minders that follow them and keep tabs) they've been taking their business opportunities to Vietnam, etc. Apple should work to do the same.

That's true and unfortunate. I wish that didn't happen. But you don't know the root cause: Westerner who are mostly activists with irrational feeling that they have better "value" and interpret the Chinese behaviour in their own cultish belief systme caused the reaction which is also irrational.

Good part is (ironically) China won't lost control because of its one party system. It's also powerful enougth that US and Western countries can not bomb it like they did in Middle East.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#308

Post by throwawy4trueth »

Qub3d wrote: post #248
throwawy4trueth wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is quite simple: mind your own business. Let time and history to tell. China never send army or CIA to overthrow other countries. If the other side don't want to do the business that's fine. Westerner like to spread their values, often with force.

Given the name, age, and almost hilariously stereotypical grammatical errors, I can only assume you are at best a troll and at worst some sort of astroturfer or Chinese national. China has absolutely used state power to affect foreign states. Consider all the infrastructure projects funded by Chinese money in Africa[0] and consider what the ultimate motive is. [0]: https://qz.com/africa/1326618/china-is-building-expe…

Assume your imagination is correct, can you argue with which part is false instead of who I am and what motive is?

The way you draw your conclusion reflects some interesting information.

[edit]: Thanks for the link. It seems China is building infrastructure for other countries. Of cause it's not free but it's better than bombing other countries in the name of promoting value of freedom. A lot of people from victim countries see the bombers as evil but I think they(bombers) are just cult believer consider themselves liberators.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#309

Post by throwawy4trueth »

plandis wrote: post #241
throwawy4trueth wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is quite simple: mind your own business. Let time and history to tell. China never send army or CIA to overthrow other countries. If the other side don't want to do the business that's fine. Westerner like to spread their values, often with force.

“Mind your own business” the Chinese say while simultaneously getting upset when an individual in their individual capacity says something on an American website banned in China. Is irony not a thing in China?

That's not valid argument. The ban is a response to an individual not minding his business but China business. If the indificual say something about himself, your are right. Can you get it?

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#310

Post by guelo »

Aperocky wrote: post #236
guelo wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody, including Chinese citizens thinks this is "ordinary people boycotting offensive speech", this is government action.

I'm going to take a wild guess that you're not a Chinese citizen and you are not on any forum that they frequent. I find it truly stupid that Chinese government intervened, but if you think this move wasn't popular in China you're dead wrong.

If nobody is allowed to express support for Hong Kong on Chinese social media do we really know what their sentiments are?
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