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Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

latimes.com

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Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#301

Post by downtide »

oarsinsync wrote: post #280
mrep wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically (I cannot seem to word this in my mind without sounding like an ass so please don't take offense), your comment is about 10 lines long on my 15 inch laptop making it somewhat difficult to read for us vision readers. A double new line every few sentences which causes a paragraph on hacker news makes it much easier.

If you make your browser window half width, or increase your text size, you may find it's easier to read. When I'm awake and focused, I can read smaller text across longer lines without problems. When I'm more tired, I need to increase the text size, bring the screen closer, make window widths smaller. You may also benefit from getting your vision checked. This may be early stages of something occurring, and the soon…

There's other cognitive issues here. I find reading from the screen difficult, CRT, LED, OLED, but I'm fine given e-ink. Any web pages with text more than a paragraph or so is sent to an e-reader for me, otherwise I just cannot comprehend the content. I can cope with snippets.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#302

Post by playpause »

bertjk wrote: post #244
mltony wrote: post #74

Blind programmer here. Just a glimpse of my life. Blind people have to live in an environment where X% of web sites and programs are not accessible, where X varies somewhere from 20% (for web sites) to 50% (for desktop applications). That's just my approximation of the state of accessibility these days. Now imagine that you live in the world where you don't know which printer or wi-fi router to buy, since maybe half…

Have you ever encountered any web sites that you feel went above and beyond in accessibility? I have sometimes wondered while debugging a site for accessibility concerns, fixing the nth input focus problem or what not, whether it would be preferable to actually just design an entirely separate optimized audible experience instead of forcing the user to infer the shape of a designed-for-sighted people website by tabbi…

I think one problem with that approach is that blindness isn’t binary. Many registered blind people are partially sighted and use screen readers and other assistive tech to supplement low vision.

Another concern: as someone working on a large web development team, I think that maintaining a separate “non-visual” site would entrench a two-tier approach to quality and completeness (noticing and fixing issues, adding new features, etc). If you treat them as two separate applications they will inevitably diverge over time, despite best intentions. You might even end up with slightly different URL structures on each site, making it impossible for a blind user to find the corresponding audio version of a certain URL they found on social media, for example.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#303

Post by downtide »

drewmol wrote: post #194
mltony wrote: post #74

Blind programmer here. Just a glimpse of my life. Blind people have to live in an environment where X% of web sites and programs are not accessible, where X varies somewhere from 20% (for web sites) to 50% (for desktop applications). That's just my approximation of the state of accessibility these days. Now imagine that you live in the world where you don't know which printer or wi-fi router to buy, since maybe half…

I'm not blind but I'm laughing from reading your annecdote because: I'm a developer with typical accessability requirements who has a similar experience ordering pizza online and winds up calling ;-)

Easy to read/follow menu, and a phone call isn't that hard, with front door payment.

Online shopping experiences vary widely. I love it when the interface isn't even noticed/gets out of your way.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#304

Post by snek »

esyir wrote: post #293
snek wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2010 Google determined that there were more people using the internet with accessibility features than Canadians. I can't find any new data, but I find it hard to assume that has gone down since. On top of that, making your website friendly to navigate with a keyboard doesn't just help people using accessibility features, lots of people use the keyboard to quickly navigate.

We have ~4.77 billion people on the internet. Assuming all of Canada was blind, that's 0.77% of total users. Under most circumstances, I get that some level of accessibility is reasonable, but if you're expecting the same level of UI investment there for <1% of the population, I'd call that insane. Here, he can still call in and order the pizza.

Making a website accessable isn't hard. there's a plethora of tooling available to help and most of it comes down to aria roles and color selection. It really is a bare minimum sort of task imo.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#305

Post by qtplatypus »

throwaway_bad wrote: post #196
thomasedwards wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

React/Vue/etc are all accessible. Almost all web technology that exists is accessible. The trouble is you can’t just do what you want, and you have to test it to ensure it’s accessible. Most companies put it to the bottom of the list or forget about it. It really isn’t that hard, no new tools are required, everything is already there: you just have to do it.

You are thinking of the most trivial of apps. For example I have worked on a web-based image editor that is practically impossible to make accessible to the blind. Not with current screen reader technology. Another example is Reddit, where a good chunk of their content is just text memes overlaid on images. For compliance, would you force people to describe their images with an alt text before submission? The better…

The law requires only "readily achievable"changes. So something that is practically impossible isn’t required.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#306

Post by concordDance »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #201
mrep wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically (I cannot seem to word this in my mind without sounding like an ass so please don't take offense), your comment is about 10 lines long on my 15 inch laptop making it somewhat difficult to read for us vision readers. A double new line every few sentences which causes a paragraph on hacker news makes it much easier.

I have such bad eyesight that I gave up my driver's license. I didn't find it that burdensome to read the comment in question. You might want to get your eyes checked or read up on other disabilities that can impair reading ability even if your eyesight is fine. If you feel so impinged upon that it makes sense to you to ask a blind person to accommodate your needs and problems, you may have an unidentified handicap.…

> so impinged upon

I greatly doubt it was anything more than mildy irritating and the grandparent never implied otherwise.

It's annoying for me to read and I have perfect vision.

Being blind doesn't make you immune to an expectation to be accomodating to others.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#307

Post by dlphn___xyz »

mltony wrote: post #74

Blind programmer here. Just a glimpse of my life. Blind people have to live in an environment where X% of web sites and programs are not accessible, where X varies somewhere from 20% (for web sites) to 50% (for desktop applications). That's just my approximation of the state of accessibility these days. Now imagine that you live in the world where you don't know which printer or wi-fi router to buy, since maybe half…

not trying to be an asshole but how long did it take to type this comment? do you use some sort of voice to text software?

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#308

Post by alkonaut »

I wonder if there is a good rule of thumb for what software and features are acceptable to not be accessible? What does it mean for a drawing program to be accessible by the legally blind? You can follow accessibility guidelines (for UI navigation and so on) but does that mean you made the program accessible if the bulk of the operations you can actually do in the software - draw - still requires seeing what you are doing? Are you expected to invent workarounds that allows people to use your software, or can you assume that "nah, no blind person is likely to be drawing anyway"? It seems there is a gray area where it's just not economically feasible to add some extreme bespooke types of accessibility, but at the same time not doing it will make it self fulfilling - of course no blind people will draw in drawing programs so long as they don't get the tools.

Re: Supreme Court allows blind people to sue retailers if websites aren't accessible

#309

Post by rimliu »

notyourwork wrote: post #71
dexwiz wrote: post #48

I see a lot of negativity in the comments. I imagine much of that is gut reactions of web developers hearing they need to do more work. As a web developer that has had to pass an accessibility review from a person who is actually blind each release for the last two years, I can tell you it’s not that hard. Make sure you have a sensible tab order and labels on forms and you are 80% there. The hard issues are creating…

The key is actually using a screen reader and better yet having someone with accessibly needs provide feedback. Following guidelines is great but usability is only great when you actually see how someone interacts with your site. Again though, it’s not that hard.

And that's where you enter the woods. There is no "the screenreader". There are different screen readers, and each my interpret your site differently.
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