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Update on AB5

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Re: Update on AB5

#301

Post by choppaface »

igurari wrote: post #63

For those interested in understanding the underlying case law that AB5 codifies (a decision called Dynamex Operations West, Inc. v. Superior Court), my company, Judicata, published a visual (and tech-enabled) explanation of the decision when it was first published: https://blog.judicata.com/understanding-dynamex-the-californ... Whether or not Uber drivers are employees or contractors under Dynamex and the ABC test is…

One of the tests is: “that the worker is free from the control and direction of the hirer in connection with the performance of the work, both under the contract for the performance of the work and in fact”

Since Uber rates drivers, does background checks, sets the routes, leases cars, etc., how does Uber plan to avoid this check? Do ratings sort drivers, or is Uber effectively creating a credential that governs the driver? What does the distribution of driver activity look like?

It’s hard to believe an all-or-nothing determination will hold. Surely some fraction of most-active drivers will end up getting called employees.

It’s one thing to explain the law (and case law) and yet another to provide an explanation with evidence. The latter is what we need (especially as voters), yet the former is what lawyers like to peddle because it makes them money. Uber’s post is almost 100% legalese. CEO Dara had an opportunity to make a grounded statement here, but didn’t.

Re: Update on AB5

#302

Post by madrasman »

xmprt wrote: post #285
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know at least in some situations it goes like this: A group of people have been living off the land for centuries. At some point a government comes in and takes the land from them to sell to a factory owner so the government can profit. With no land to farm, working at that factory becomes their best option. But the workers get abused. Women get raped. Their pay is stolen. Still they don’t have a better option. The…

That's a tragic story but I don't see how it's relevant to Uber. There's absolutely no coercion going on. People are free to join and leave as they wish. I still believe that having the ability to drive for Uber is always better than not having that opportunity.

I largely agree with that, but with a couple of possible exceptions where it is relevant. 1) Some people bought cars or quit other jobs because Uber offered a much larger pay and bonuses two years ago. 2) Uber also killed the taxi industry, which offered better working conditions to drivers.

Re: Update on AB5

#303

Post by 9nGQluzmnq3M »

henryfjordan wrote: post #222
biggestdecision wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's truth to that story, but it doesn't paint the whole picture. Rural life is dull, you have a limited social circle and limited access to culture. And you have few opportunities. People today still crowd into overpriced cities with poor living conditions, because they dream of 'making it', and they can't bear the thought of toiling away at agriculture (or at a lesser job). In China, an entire generation has bee…

I don't get the comparison with China. They still have an incredibly significant agricultural workforce (like 30% of workers are in agriculture) compared to 2% in the US. The US already moved people off farms to factories before WWII and we're in a different stage of economic development. We're not talking about subsistence farming vs driving for Uber here.

In many countries like India and Indonesia, driving for Uber (or Gojek or Grab or Ola) is a viable alternative to subsistence farming.

Re: Update on AB5

#304

Post by esoterica »

organsnyder wrote: post #29
npmaile wrote: post #8

As someone who drives Uber on occasion when I'm a little bored and looking for something to do, I think it's great that I'm not an Uber employee. I can do 10 hours or I can do 0 hours based on nothing but my own whim. I don't have a problem with people organizing to get a better deal for themselves, but I like the way it works now. I've worked for companies that misclassify workers, and Uber isn't it as far as I unde…

There is very little downside for the employee to be classified as such rather than as a contractor. The vast majority of the downside is for the employer. I'm a W-2 employee at the company I work for, and they don't dictate my hours.

If you decide to not work for 2 months without telling anyone do you think you would still be employed? Because neither Uber nor Lyft would stop you from doing that.

Re: Update on AB5

#305

Post by caconym_ »

spookthesunset wrote: post #290
wpietri wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making it illegal is the the whole point of AB5. Contractor status was once for a very specific kind of worker: independent professionals who were basically solo businesses. It has turned into a giant loophole, where worker have the downsides of employment along with the downsides of being a contractor. AB5 aims to return to the status quo, where if you want to hire a bunch of employees, you really have to treat them…

Except they aren’t employees. They are something else. Make a new classification for them.

If the law says they're employees, they're employees until the law changes. In the same vein as my earlier post, the fact that a corporation wants to "employ" (in the basic dictionary sense) workers under certain arbitrary terms doesn't make said arbitrary terms legal, nor does it create a mandate to make them legal.

Re: Update on AB5

#306

Post by kinkrtyavimoodh »

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #287
stickfigure wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the worker get some say in this? I, for one, would much rather drive for Uber than run a fryer. To the point of willing to take a significant pay cut to avoid the fast food industry.

You still have a choice where to work. Why do you think AB5 takes that away?

It takes that away with Uber stops "hiring" me because now I am too costly to have because AB5 makes me their employee.

Re: Update on AB5

#307

Post by kinkrtyavimoodh »

ablerman wrote: post #120
sneak wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A mission statement is not a product or service offering. Google doesn’t sell “the world’s information”, for example.

Sure it does, it just doesn't sell it to you. You are not the purchaser of the information, you are providing the information that's being sold.

Google does not sell information to anyone. Please don't spread outright falsehoods.

Re: Update on AB5

#308

Post by hailk »

aianus wrote: post #272
bscphil wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Part of me thinks Uber could get away with this if they just relaxed some of their current driver policies (e.g. more limited penalties for cancellations). The issue is whether doing so would drastically deteriorate the quality of the service for riders. I'm going to go with yes. The only times I use ride sharing services (Lyft, not Uber) are in high-density situations like getting to and from the airport. Dependin…

This comment doesn't make sense to me (as a part time Uber driver myself). First, the driver doesn't see your destination until he picks you up. Second, there is no competition or reason to rush to "mash" the button, the ride request is exclusive to you as a driver for the 10 seconds that you see it.

Drivers often call you and ask you where your drop location is. Depending on your answer, they often cancel. Or worse, ask you to cancel. I've even had cancellations after I've sat in the car.

Re: Update on AB5

#309

Post by evil-olive »

solidasparagus wrote: post #300
paxys wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering drivers can't even set their own prices, this fails that test from the get go.

In practice drivers do set their prices by only driving when the price is what they're willing to pay (e.g. only during surge pricing). In contrast to an employee that works specific hours and has to take every ride while on the clock.

> In practice drivers do set their prices by only driving when the price is what they're willing to pay

So your argument is that drivers really set the price...

> (e.g. only during surge pricing)

And your example of drivers setting the price is...algorithms running at Uber and Lyft that set prices. Algorithms which Uber and Lyft would surely regard as proprietary trade secrets and resist disclosing to drivers, passengers, or government regulators.

How is that drivers setting prices, exactly? If an Uber driver wants to give me a ride to the airport, the Uber app decides that it costs $X. If that Uber driver believes that Uber's surge pricing model is inaccurate and thinks the real price should be $Y, there is no facility for me and the driver to negotiate on a different price.

Re: Update on AB5

#310

Post by m-ee »

bscphil wrote: post #117
dawhizkid wrote: post #31

Uber's defense is that it is licensing lead generation software to drivers, and that it just takes a commission from each trip as payment for use of its software. In many ways, I can see it. I think the issue lies in a lot of Uber's current policies around drivers e.g. very strict rules around cancellations. If Uber was just a lead generation provider then it shouldn't care or intervene if a driver decides they don't…

> Part of me thinks Uber could get away with this if they just relaxed some of their current driver policies (e.g. more limited penalties for cancellations). The issue is whether doing so would drastically deteriorate the quality of the service for riders. I'm going to go with yes. The only times I use ride sharing services (Lyft, not Uber) are in high-density situations like getting to and from the airport. Dependin…

Oddly enough cancellations have been much worse for me this year when trying to go from SF->Oakland. Most infuriating is when drivers come close enough to lie and say they're at the pickup spot (showing them my destination) then just drive away without stopping. I mostly use Lyft, so I'm not sure if this is a problem with Uber as well.
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