Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The electric car as a talisman of false hope

jussipasanen.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

301–310 of 338 posts

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#301

Post by magduf »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #196
magduf wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ford Focus is still a 3000-pound car these days. Even "economy" cars these days are rather heavy, and you'd be surprised how little those 70s cars weighed. Old Mustangs are positively lightweight. While the land boats are mostly gone, cars in general have gotten larger and especially heavier, even with lightweight technologies and materials used to offset the increase. The way I read it, the OP was talking about…

Just like a bicycle. Which are also booming. And which are also dangerous to ride on the road with any car. The argument I was addressing was, if its really an arms race, then no way we would go from the 4800lb Ford Thunderbird to the 2600lb Ford Focus in a generation. Folks have by and large opted out of the arms race. For better and for worse.

The only problem with your argument here is the fact that Ford doesn't sell cars, including the Focus, in the USA any more. So I'm not sure what locale you're talking about, but it doesn't reflect reality in America right now.

The 4800lb Thunderbird buyers aren't buying cars; they're buying SUVs and crossovers these days.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#302

Post by llsf »

Mirioron wrote: post #295
llsf wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the problem is the "hype" around electric cars, not the electric car itself. Nobody said "buy an electric car, and you are done, the planet would be saved". And if some people do believe that, then it is an education issue, not an electric car issue. A bit tired of people shooting for perfection and berating those who actually try to make a difference, even so slightly. Maybe a more effective solution would be to…

> Nobody said "buy an electric car, and you are done, the planet would be saved". And if some people do believe that, then it is an education issue, not an electric car issue. It's irrelevant what people said. What matters is what people believe. > A bit tired of people shooting for perfection and berating those who actually try to make a difference, even so slightly. The problem here is that you only have a limited…

I guess we agree that electric car is not the problem, education is. So, let's the 0.2% of them buy electric cars.

And let's find a way to get rid of all large (fossil fuel powered) ships/planes and coal/gas power plants polluting way more than all cars combined.

All that hair splitting about electric cars is just noise.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#303

Post by godshatter »

WorldMaker wrote: post #289
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dominant share of vehicle miles are commuting to work. If you work 9-5 and there is a charging port at work, you plug into it when you get there and you're charging during daylight hours. Meanwhile the average commute is 16 miles each way against cars that now have a ~300 mile range, which is plenty of slack for the odd evening use while still not needing to charge outside of work on anything but rare occasions.

In the 300 mile range you start to get near the point where the average (mean and median, maybe not mode) commuter can charge once a week on an average work week at a fast charger at the local grocery store for merely an hour or two and still not worry about range. Work charging and home charging are nice to have slow and steady options that make EVs easier than gas, but it's about to the point where if you treat it…

How long does an electric car take to charge, though? That's the convenience factor of ICE vehicles that will be hard to beat, probably. I can fill up my ICE vehicle in a minute or two.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#304

Post by blueadept111 »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #285
Denzel wrote: post #13

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect. His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching…

I read the article's message as follows: electric cars are still cars and cars are always going to be bad for the planet, so stop driving any cars, including electric cars. So he's not trying to argue for a total solution or no solution. He's arguing that the proposed solution is actually part of the problem, and that it is not a solution because it is part of the problem, not because it is a partial solution. You, a…

Nobody wants to hear that the only solution is to keep human population levels to something sustainably low. It's more fun to pretend that shiny new tech will save us.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#305

Post by JoeAltmaier »

lm28469 wrote: post #255
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, if you have money, you can opt out of uncomfortable inconvenient dirty solutions to your transportation problems. What's money for after all.

> What's money for after all. > At the heart of capitalism is a vast and scarcely examined assumption: you are entitled to as great a share of the world’s resources as your money can buy. You can purchase as much land, as much atmospheric space, as many minerals, as much meat and fish as you can afford, regardless of who might be deprived. If you can pay for them, you can own entire mountain ranges and fertile plains…

Vast wealth can get out of hand, sure.

But for the most part, we as individuals earn money to better our lives. Get a better education, live in a better part of town, raise kids safer with better food etc. Its not a game, its life. Its also a mistake to say "money shouldn't determine important things like who gets to go to a good school", because money is exactly designed for that. Its not supposed to be just a game where money only buys toys and entertainment

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#306

Post by JoeAltmaier »

magduf wrote: post #301
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like a bicycle. Which are also booming. And which are also dangerous to ride on the road with any car. The argument I was addressing was, if its really an arms race, then no way we would go from the 4800lb Ford Thunderbird to the 2600lb Ford Focus in a generation. Folks have by and large opted out of the arms race. For better and for worse.

The only problem with your argument here is the fact that Ford doesn't sell cars, including the Focus, in the USA any more. So I'm not sure what locale you're talking about, but it doesn't reflect reality in America right now. The 4800lb Thunderbird buyers aren't buying cars; they're buying SUVs and crossovers these days.

Ford still sells the Focus; I chose it for exactly that reason. Its the only sedan they kept.

Ah now I see they're renaming it the 'Active'. My mistake.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#307

Post by cr0sh »

magduf wrote: post #173
localhost wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem, as the author tangentially points out, is our over-reliance on cars to move us around. That’s due to the intentional choices that we have all made. If you look at the structure of suburban areas of cities in the US, you’ll immediately see that they are entirely designed the assumption of the existence of a personal car for YOU. You simply cannot get around without one. A choice that I’m grappling wi…

>A choice that I’m grappling with personally (as someone who lives in the suburbs in the US and owns two Teslas) is that I should really move somewhere more sustainable, i.e., more density so that I can get rid of my cars. That’s more difficult given family needs etc. If I didn’t have to factor others’ needs, I would have done this already. This is exactly what I'm planning to do. However, for most Americans, it isn'…

> There's almost no place in this country where you can live without a car.

There's almost no place in this country -that is affordable- where you can live without a car.

That's the real problem. Sure - there's NY or SF, which for the most part have the infrastructure to support most people's non-car needs. But only the very few can afford to live in either place. I know I couldn't afford it, unless I somehow could land a FAANG job (not likely at my age and education level). I can't even afford to live in the downtown area of the city I currently live "in" (Phoenix) - prices there have skyrocketed, mainly due to certain infrastructure transportation improvements and other things making downtown "the cool place" to live at (and conversely pushing out the artists and such who can't afford to live there any longer). Expensive loft apartments, existing urban housing in the historic parts (pricing gone thru the roof on those). It's crazy. So - out in the "suburbs" I stay (which isn't really the real suburbs any longer, since I'm in an older area that used to be "the edge" but no longer).

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#308

Post by Mirioron »

llsf wrote: post #302
Mirioron wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody said "buy an electric car, and you are done, the planet would be saved". And if some people do believe that, then it is an education issue, not an electric car issue. It's irrelevant what people said. What matters is what people believe. > A bit tired of people shooting for perfection and berating those who actually try to make a difference, even so slightly. The problem here is that you only have a limited…

I guess we agree that electric car is not the problem, education is. So, let's the 0.2% of them buy electric cars. And let's find a way to get rid of all large (fossil fuel powered) ships/planes and coal/gas power plants polluting way more than all cars combined. All that hair splitting about electric cars is just noise.

Nonono, I think you still misunderstand a bit. Electric cars are good. It is a step in the right direction. The problem is the perception that many people have that gasoline cars are the main problem and switching to electric is what's needed. The argument by the author is against the rhetoric of electric cars, not against electric cars themselves.

All of what you said is what needs to be done (and more), so we should use rhetoric that acknowledges that cars are only a part of the problem.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#309

Post by cr0sh »

localhost wrote: post #261
yellowapple wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real problem, as the author tangentially points out, is our over-reliance on cars to move us around. And the author fails to explain why (in the context of climate change) that's actually a problem. Suburban areas have a disproportionate carbon footprint specifically because of ICE-powered cars being required to go anywhere; if those ICE cars become electric cars, and that electricity comes from solar/wind/nucl…

Another aspect of suburban living that I don't like at all is how it isolates people from each other. I've made the mistake of living in a subdivision with lot sizes > 0.5 acres. Because of the low density, my kids can't have spontaneous interactions with friends that I enjoyed while younger, i.e., walk / cycle to their houses to hang out. Everything becomes scheduled and everything requires a car to shuttle the kids…

> I've become convinced that density really is the answer to building a more humane way of living.

Counterpoint?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#310

Post by bdamm »

WorldMaker wrote: post #286
bdamm wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much easier would be for the utility to transmit the current price of power and have the car or charger charge the car when the price is below a certain threshold. The problem is that the best time to charge a car is immediately after it has been used, so it is ready to go the next time. Who wants a half dead car sitting around?

"Smart Grid" utilities can even "borrow" electricity from a sitting car's battery when demand/price is high and "repay it with interest" when demand/price is low. Some CCS chargers and car models already support this idea, but it may be a while to see it in practice. You generally don't need a full charged car at all times of the day: if you and your car both know you'll be at work for the next 8 hours and most likel…

Utilities will need to formulate financial incentives to get this done. It should make sense, yet few utilities actually are doing it.
Post reply on HN