Earlier quoted context omitted.
Gab is not a free speech social network. Gab is a white supremacy social network. Gab has actively courted white supramcists[0], white supremacists make up the vast majority of their userbase[1]. I understand and respect your deep support of free speech. But please, take a step back here and think about what you are saying you are glad about. Are you really glad a group of people decided to roll up their sleeves and…
If those people become the majority (which, terrifyingly, no longer seems outside of the realm of possibility), you and those who share your beliefs might become the ones needing the protections of free speech and the ability to circumvent deplatforming. _Now_ do you see why maintaining free speech protections is important?
Gab will become a Mastodon fork
301–310 of 335 posts
Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork
#302Earlier quoted context omitted.
The darkness is only ever undone by shining a light. By all means, people of reasonable sense should take a moment to look at Gab and realize what counter-factual nonsense it is, because banning it or censoring it will only make it more powerful.
That's a common claim, but I've seen precious little evidence for it. For decades US Nazis and other loons were justifiably obscure. But the rise of the Internet, which enabled all sorts of connection, also enabled our country's worst to more easily connect, network, and recruit. A good book on the topic is Neiwart's "Alt-America", written by a journalist who studied American white supremacists starting in the 1980s.…
Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
Okay cool. I wonder does that mean Gab is able to use and benefit from any apps/tools created for Mastodon instances - or would it be possible for the owners of those apps/tools themselves to block/prevent certain instances from benefiting? I'd hope that's the case so everyone has the ability to 'vote' for who they are supporting.
Free Software can’t discriminate based on use case, but this was written back before godwin’s law was repealed, so, maybe no one will care that much if freedom zero gets tossed out? sigh https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html A program is free software if the program's users have the four essential freedoms: [1] The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0). ...
Nuclear weapons have widespread and massive devastation, the potential energy that builds up with hate is perhaps more terrifying though - as instead of immediately killing millions, you'll have situations like Nazi Germany, and so on - allowing bad actors to gain more and more power and more resources to influence the world.
I don't know and am not saying whether it should be done or not, if a developer who builds something that works with Mastodon's structure should be allowed to build a mechanism in that prevents who they consider bad actors (or bad parents) to having use of their tool; of course the bad actors could copy and develop the tools themselves, however those slight or temporary advantages do play a role in who is a victor - imagine if it was the Nazis had nuclear weapons first.
Generally not aiding people towards their goals who you see are behaving in a way that leads to hate and violence is a good thing, no? Helping them survive, understand, and quell their unrest, yes - but not helping hate and violence boil and explode.
The university Mark Zuckerberg was attending was planning to develop an online version of what they called a physical version of The Facebook. Mark couldn't understand why it was taking them so long and said he could get it launched quickly; the reason it wasn't being launched quickly was the university/committee was trying to understand the security, social, and other implications. Mark didn't care at all about the consequences - including but not limited to him fucking over the twin brothers who hired him to develop ConnectU, leading them on purposefully so he could launch Facebook first. Perhaps if everyone did care about the consequences for what they invest their time and/or money into, then standing for good - rallying good people and helping prop them up as best as we all can all in service to others - would gain a leg up against bad actors, malevolence?
Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork
#304Earlier quoted context omitted.
The conclusion I always seem to come to is you eventually want to be able to trust those within your network. I believe that requires some level of initial openness to prove who you are to a personally selected authority you decide to trust, who can verify your identity, and then allow you to communicate/engage with your real name or one-to-many pseudonyms, so if your actions are outside whatever rules exist for that…
You’re saying that intelligence agencies should infiltrate and spy on dissident groups? Pretty sure they do that already, but weird to see people advocate for it.
We have to decide as a society what that line is - and that it isn't discussed is a problem. There's nuance required for it and a black-or-white solution - full open access for security services vs. complete blackout and being blind also isn't ideal. And is it even possible to allocate resources efficiently enough to do so, perhaps only being ready to enact resources once the hate starts boiling over noticeably? I believe the cheaper solution will be people subscribing to network(s) they trust, where it is known and accessible by the leaders and only the highest in the chain, and how their governance holds for accountability and safety will evolve over time - with best practices evolving.
For example, if all data was instantly movable from Facebook - there would have been entrepreneurs immediately developing duplicate platforms, perhaps with better UXs and features, to capture the perhaps even small amount of users who stopped trusting Facebook's controller(s) - aka Mark Zuckerberg. Even if a small amount of users initially that would have been detrimental to Facebook enough due to network effects being hurt, enough hopefully that would have kept Facebook in line, in check. For each subsequent violation of trust and without an authentic, full response or explanation by leadership, the more fodder there would be for people to disperse to more trusted networks - and people trying to bring their network with them. This mobility is more inherent to and mirrors what real life trust networks look like. If someone violates your trust too strongly and you have no interest in giving them another chance, you can (in most cases) cut them out of your network. When your data is essentially hostage however, it's like you're married, living with them, and you don't have the financial freedom or support to escape an abusive spouse.
It's interesting to see that Mastodon will grow further and allow Gab and the groups it is happy to support to continue conversing in a decentralized manner, and benefitting from tools that may or may not have the authors' blessings to be used for hate and violence.
I've never said if this is negative or positive. Overall it isn't useful to not have conversation because that allows hate to fester, for potential energy to build up enough that then once the blister is ready to pop - it can make a mess, and by mess I mean terrorism to civil war. We now know this riling up of people has been actions and funded by tyrannical governments (bad actors in control of government in other nations) who want to see democracy collapse.
The next Hitler is what we're trying to fight against, however with the internet, data, technology, the bad actors are intelligent enough to know they have to maintain some level of incognito - until perhaps one day they make a massive power move. Journalist Jamal Khashoggi¹ being cut apart alive only murdering him after, likewise the recent poisoning of Alexander Litvinenk² were brazen and obvious attacks - and becoming more and more obvious as to who is aligning to try to fail democracy and strengthen their control, and using tactics like hiring evil people and firms with no integrity like Cambridge Analytica³ who is happy to lie and/or blackmail, and promote propaganda to help bad actors win elections.
Along with current U.S. administration - Trump and family - supporting and condoning these behaviours - Jared Kushner 'justified murder of Saudi dissident journalist Khashoggi, calling him a terrorist’⁴, and Trump trying to signal to worst of humanity that there is no law and they will get away with their horrific behaviour by Trump being expected to pardon Navy SEAL Edward Gallagher of war crimes⁵. And more confirmation of Russia’s propaganda efforts by deploying its team of propagandists to cover up the murder of 298 people on flight MH17⁶ to attempt to control the narrative around the world and within their own population - something that we know China does, and Russia is copying, on a whole other level and we should be equally responsive to knowing what pitfalls exist with censorship.
¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi
² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvine...
³ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpbeOCKZFfQ
⁴ https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2019/5/30/kushner-jus...
⁵ https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/18/us/trump-pardons-war-crim...
⁶ https://www.thedailybeast.com/mh17-russia-deployed-its-troll...
Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork
#305Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nobody is talking about banning history books about Nazis. They're not even talking about about preventing Nazis from speaking. They're just choosing to exercise their freedom of association and not provide a platform for Nazis, the same way they boot harassers and spammers. And the same way that publishers have for centuries declined to publish works they don't want to stand behind. You can handwave all you like abo…
> You can handwave all you like about the (vague, unspecified) horrible cost. There is a place on Earth where opinions deemed to be bad are vigilantly monitored for and instantly deplatformed: The People's Republic of China. Is that truly the future you wish for? Reading these posts from the modern left is ghastly to those of us who remain old school liberals. To defeat their opponents and prevent them from crushing…
I'm just saying that free citizens should not be obligated to serve Nazis or publish their content. And also that citizens should be able to criticize those who do. My position here is consistently pro-freedom. Specifically, I'm for free speech and free association.
Note also that actual Chinese people think your position, that criticism is equivalent to what the PRC does, is hyperbolic pants-wetting: https://twitter.com/jackiehluo/status/1134038887893016577
Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork
#306Earlier quoted context omitted.
Experts who study the topic make pretty clear that this is a problem. That you, an anonymous person on the internet, believe otherwise, is not much in the way of evidence. It's also ridiculous that you conflate the 1992 riots (which were a spontaneous reaction to police violence) with the sort of things that Nazis would like to get up to. It's even more ridiculous that you ignore things like the Charlottesville car a…
You are missing a lot of understanding not just on the initial cause of the 92 riots but the effects including racial violence - which is exactly the sort of thing Nazis would get up to. Can you quote some experts? And, preferably not some far right quack blaming twitter for him losing. Likewise, you seem to be caught up in some epiphenomenon issues - you blame the internet for these attacks yet similar attacks and m…
So as mentioned in my bio, I think you've used up your ration of my time. You'll have to carry on in your support of violent white supremacists without me.
Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork
#307Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's a common claim, but I've seen precious little evidence for it. For decades US Nazis and other loons were justifiably obscure. But the rise of the Internet, which enabled all sorts of connection, also enabled our country's worst to more easily connect, network, and recruit. A good book on the topic is Neiwart's "Alt-America", written by a journalist who studied American white supremacists starting in the 1980s.…
This is a good way to put it. Gab and its sort come from a perspective that putting hungry tigers with kittens lets the kittens teach the tigers not to eat them.
Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork
#308Earlier quoted context omitted.
Okay cool. I wonder does that mean Gab is able to use and benefit from any apps/tools created for Mastodon instances - or would it be possible for the owners of those apps/tools themselves to block/prevent certain instances from benefiting? I'd hope that's the case so everyone has the ability to 'vote' for who they are supporting.
Mastodon is basically a protocol. Replace “Mastodon” with “HTTP” and you’ll see why your comment makes no sense: “Okay cool. I wonder does that mean Gab is able to use and benefit from any apps/tools created for HTTP servers - or would it be possible for the owners of those apps/tools themselves to block/prevent certain servers from benefiting? I'd hope that's the case so everyone has the ability to 'vote' for who th…
Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork
#309Earlier quoted context omitted.
While apple does have some 'technology bars' you have to clear to get into their store. You can't use private APIs in the Apple frameworks for example. There are also 'content' bars that have to be surmounted. I don't think just because they use activity pub or whatever protocol that apple is going to roll over and play nice. Their whole social network is literally a garbage fire, Apple doesn't want to associate thei…
Apple allows alternative web browsers and email clients. They also allow encrypted person to person messengers like whatsapp that terrorists can use to plan attacks. Any of this type of client app can and will be used for the worst things in the internet. So far Apple has not tried to censor it, I’d be surprised if that changed but we will see.
Re: Gab will become a Mastodon fork
#310Earlier quoted context omitted.
Same thing -- people calling for odious thing Y (whgich, unlike odious thing X doesn't get them kicked out of Twitter) would not care to go to Gab with its tiny number of users. Of course Gab would court those who might actually be interested in joining. Not to say that Gab isn't a cesspool, and Mr. Torba, when he shows up here, appears to be a rather unpleasant character, but Gab being full of bad people is a functi…
Sure, granted. But who cares? It doesn't make Gab come off any better. Opportunistic bigotry is just as bad as… well, bigotry. I'm not saying Andrew Torba shouldn't have built Gab; I am lamenting its existence, insofar as I don't want anyone to be a white supremacist. But white supremacists do exist, and as long as they do they'll make spaces for themselves, whether on Gab or 8chan or some dark corner of Twitter. All…
And in any case I just am not sure if pushing undesirables (especially if it is undesirables only of a certain political bent, but not the others) into some dark corner is a good strategy. Both sides end up in even stronger filter bubbles, and banned people get good recruiting tools and feed theior persec ution complexes -- because the "lamestream media" and "libturds" actually are out to get them.