Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords • Hacker News Board

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#301

Post by rhacker » Fri, May 10, 2019, 6:33 PM UTC

sachdevap wrote: post #251

daveFNbuck wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A tenant who isn't able to operate a smartphone may also be unable to remember and/or physically enter a numeric code.

This is curious. The person is able to operate a key, but is unable to enter a physical code on a keypad? As for remembering the code, keeping a piece of paper with the code is no different from keeping a key. To clarify my position, I am not in favor of the app for privacy reasons, and prefer the physical lock and key. But it isn't clear to me how far the dexterity argument goes.

Well, a piece of paper is easier to lose than a key on a keychain. I would suggest a metal key-chainable object that has the code written on it with relief bump-outs. On the flip side the same thing with brail.

Even then, it's not equivalent: a hidden wireless camera installed by a thief can easily see the code on the paper or key thing, or even typed into the pad.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#302

Post by rhacker » Fri, May 10, 2019, 6:36 PM UTC

intopieces wrote: post #242

pjc50 wrote: post #23

The comments seem to be missing the two key aspects: accessibility and surveillance. The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that. On top of that, smart locks can report when you enter and exit your home to the landlord; and, if under the landlord control, can provide oth…

>The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. When you say “The smart lock,” are you referring to the one in this story? The article mentions that this smart lock, which led to a common area, had a keypad: “Lisa Gallaudet, the landlords' attorney, said the smart lock was on a single door and that tenants were able to enter a numeric code t…

What about security?

A hidden camera watching someone entering a code is not as secure as placing a key in a hole.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#303

Post by dantheman » Fri, May 10, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

rhacker wrote: post #302

intopieces wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. When you say “The smart lock,” are you referring to the one in this story? The article mentions that this smart lock, which led to a common area, had a keypad: “Lisa Gallaudet, the landlords' attorney, said the smart lock was on a single door and that tenants were able to enter a numeric code t…

What about security? A hidden camera watching someone entering a code is not as secure as placing a key in a hole.

A hidden camera can get the bitting of many keys quite easily.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#304

Post by mooman219 » Fri, May 10, 2019, 6:41 PM UTC

xamuel wrote: post #246

From Philip K. Dick's "Ubik" (1969): The door refused to open. It said, “Five cents, please.” He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. “What I pay you,” he informed it, “is in the nature of a gratuity; I don’t have to pay you.” “I think otherwise,” the door said. “Look in the purchase contract you signed when y…

Now imagine that the door can afford 17 corporate lawyers or that tampering with the door is considered a public safety issue necessitating police involvement.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#305

Post by oh_sigh » Fri, May 10, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

hugi wrote: post #186

criley2 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI for Americans, it is generally illegal to change your locks and not provide the owner (or agent aka landlord) with a copy. It's their property, not yours, and depending on state/lease they have the right to have the locks drilled/replaced at YOUR expense because you are not allowed to lock an owner out of their property. There are only a few US states which have laws permitting tenants from changing locks and not…

In Iceland, if the owner of a rented apartment would request key access to his tenants apartment, well… That would be considered "batshit crazy". But it probably comes down to cultural differences, America is very authoritarian.

What happens if there is a gas or water leak and the landlord needs to let repairmen into your apartment in an emergency?

Do they just wait around until you show up with the key? Smash some windows or kick down the door?

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#306

Post by novok » Fri, May 10, 2019, 6:44 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #295

pjc50 wrote: post #23

The comments seem to be missing the two key aspects: accessibility and surveillance. The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that. On top of that, smart locks can report when you enter and exit your home to the landlord; and, if under the landlord control, can provide oth…

My memory says that in NY, the landlord cannot enter or authorize someone else to enter without 24 hours notice to the tenant. This is not widely known, and virtually every rental contract says otherwise. But those terms are unenforceable. For the record, I learned this from a lawyer living in New York as an example of why many landlords choose not to rent to lawyers. It turns out that while discriminating on the bas…

They are also more prone to sue you for more spurious shit because they have more knowledge and the cost is less for them.

They have access to a legal form of violence, and tend to not remember that just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#307

Post by Celarnor » Fri, May 10, 2019, 6:50 PM UTC

CaptainZapp wrote: post #55

tempguy9999 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> require written authorization by the landlord How are they going to even know? > ...you can't waltz into... I've never come across a key that couldn't be duplicated with a quick £5 waltz. IME only I suppose.

For example : [1] & [2] Only the entity ordring the locks is authorized to have additional keys made. And it's pretty heavily enforced by the manufacturers and distibuters. Copies are also more than 5 quid. [1] https://www.dormakaba.com/hr-hr/proizvodi/proizvodi/mechanic... [2] https://www.assaabloy.ch/en/local/switzerland/landingpage/as... Edited to add : While the web pages talk pretty much about smart locks, both…

Those are very high end ones I'd expect to see on commercial installations or homes of the ultra rich. Most landlords in my part of the US use the cheap regular off-the-shelf locks, where you can copy the key for a couple of dollars at Home Depot and throw the lock out once the tenant departs.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#308

Post by flensortow » Fri, May 10, 2019, 6:52 PM UTC

intopieces wrote: post #242

pjc50 wrote: post #23

The comments seem to be missing the two key aspects: accessibility and surveillance. The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that. On top of that, smart locks can report when you enter and exit your home to the landlord; and, if under the landlord control, can provide oth…

>The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. When you say “The smart lock,” are you referring to the one in this story? The article mentions that this smart lock, which led to a common area, had a keypad: “Lisa Gallaudet, the landlords' attorney, said the smart lock was on a single door and that tenants were able to enter a numeric code t…

> (2) The claim that a 93 year old lacked the dexterity to operate the smart lock is spurious. A physical key requires more dexterity than pushing numbers on a keypad.

In this case absolutely not. I've used the lock in question. It does not have physical keys, and the keypad is non-responsive, and round in shape (think rotary phone). Every person I know who has used the keypad has had trouble both on their first and succeeding attempts. I am pretty good with it, but it requires typing very slowly and using my thumb in order to ensure the key press is accepted.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#309

Post by rhacker » Fri, May 10, 2019, 6:54 PM UTC

dantheman wrote: post #303

rhacker wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about security? A hidden camera watching someone entering a code is not as secure as placing a key in a hole.

A hidden camera can get the bitting of many keys quite easily.

But now you have to be an expert in two or three things or have multiple people help you break in. The come back and test your faked key is also going to be more suspicious than a one shot you know the code and walk in.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#310

Post by greedo » Fri, May 10, 2019, 6:55 PM UTC

sgift wrote: post #97

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats because in the USA, the next level after an easy to pick lock is a dog. And after the dog, is a homeowner with a rifle, shotgun, or pistol. Unlike many jurisdictions all through Europe, the US has guns equaling in quantity to that of Somalia or Uruguay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g... Given the amount of guns (100+ per 100 people), and that some have a stockpile while others have…

> Given the amount of guns (100+ per 100 people), and that some have a stockpile while others have none, you're taking your life in your hands if you want to break in and burglarize. Yeah, and you know who has probably one of these guns? The people breaking into your home. And they usually have the first mover advantage, aren't surprised, and so on and so on .. I'd rather have a good lock on my home than risk this as…

Most burglaries are done by druggies looking for stuff to sell for more drugs. Career criminals know the risk/reward ratio is a bit low in burglarizing residential homes.