This is a shameful situation. We need to all wake up and take a step back and realize what's happening here: increasingly you can't have a conversation about one issue unless you are a hundred percent pure in the eyes of a frankly self-proclaimed judge jury and executioner for 100% of your other views. I am of the left myself but on a meta-level what we're doing is essentially making it impossible to ever find middle…
Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry
301–310 of 373 posts
Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry
#302Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm underwhelmed. In this specific example, the individual in question could've gotten out ahead of the press cycle and explained herself. That she didn't means the beliefs she holds as reported probably are her beliefs, and yeah---that's unacceptable for this role. This isn't thoughtless litmus-testing; this is "Google has a track record of errors regarding its trans userbase and is a company that specifically wants…
> that's unacceptable for this role Do we really need to play facts opinion? In a discussion about ethics you include as many viewpoints possible or it become dishonest immediately. You are not a priest or something like that. It has taken too long to accept premised authority.
Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm Jewish. I would not in fact be up in arms if your hypothetical person were on an AI ethics council, if I felt they might have useful things to contribute outside the context of "the Jewish Question". I suspect I would personally be happier if people could be found who could offer similar contributions without that particular viewpoint, but "mildly unhappy" is about as far as I would go in this particular scenario…
> "mildly unhappy" is about as far as I would go in this particular scenario. I suspect that you're only willing to say that because, at the moment, nazis are not anywhere close to being in a position to carry out any of their promises. Let's imagine that 30% of the general population agreed with this person's views, but that they were highly unpopular among educated people and had little influence in certain institu…
But that's not what we're talking about here, either for the particular person on the ex-board or the overall population dynamics: 30% of the population is not in favor of murdering trans people, and neither was anyone on Google's board. To get to the 30% number I think there are two options: 1) reduce the level of disapproval to the point where you in fact have a meaningful fraction of the population (not 30% by any means, but not negligible either, and including some members of congress, which I realize is much more acutely true for the trans case) with an equivalent disapproval level of Jews, or 2) define any expression of disapproval or concern with complications at all as an existential threat. It seems to me that a number of people do the latter in practice, which is why we end up with comparisons with the hypothetical Nazi-like.
Just to expand on this, I really do think there is a vast difference between 1) people who acknowledge that trans people exist and are "legitimate" in whatever sense one cares to think, have concerns about trans women's participation in women's sports, and want to figure out how and whether that can be made to work reasonably, 2) people who just wish trans people as a concept would disappear because it would make everything so much simpler, and 3) people who advocate violence against trans people. I don't think my viewpoint is universally accepted, and there are various instances in this very thread of comments conflating various positions on that spectrum.
Finally, I agree that if this board is not a serious attempt at ethics oversight and is instead just a PR stunt, then there's no point in worrying about a diversity of viewpoints and all that; Google should just appoint whoever will score the most brownie points in whatever status competition they think they're involved in. But I do think that external oversight of AI ethics to prevent echo-chamber effects is quite important, and I'm disappointed in the lack of such, whether that's because there's no board or because there is a useless board.
Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry
#304Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's funny, the mind-boggling sensitivity definitely goes both ways. I've known people who received direct but totally polite feedback suggesting they use one of many delightful gender neutral greetings instead of "guys", and became incredibly defensive. Probably described the feedback with a word similar to "nasty".
There's nothing "polite" about trying to create conflict out of trivial non-issues.
Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry
#305Earlier quoted context omitted.
You articulated so well what I've been observing. With the widening political divide, we find ourselves in this weird situation where any decision makers are swarmed with moral outrage attacks unless they're the bastions of politically correct ideology. An increasing number of topics are taboo because merely opening up a discussion around them summons the moral outrage army. Moral outrage has become most effective so…
I'm underwhelmed. In this specific example, the individual in question could've gotten out ahead of the press cycle and explained herself. That she didn't means the beliefs she holds as reported probably are her beliefs, and yeah---that's unacceptable for this role. This isn't thoughtless litmus-testing; this is "Google has a track record of errors regarding its trans userbase and is a company that specifically wants…
As determined by who? You?
Being transphobic (or racist or vegetarian or religious or egalitarian or...) is something that people are allowed to be, no matter how much someone else dislikes that.
Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry
#306Earlier quoted context omitted.
Diversity is great! Putting someone who advocates for not using AI on an AI ethics board is diversity. Putting someone who advocates for more/less/self regulation is diversity. Putting someone hostile towards the LGBTQ community and LGBTQ rights? That’s not diversity. That has no place in 2019.
Sure, but if they're not debating that topic, why should it be an issue? Not that I think such a person belongs on the panel, but the reason they're not invited should be, as you said, that they have few or no qualifications to discuss either ethics or AI. The fact that they don't agree with the others on LGBT rights should only be an issue if they insist on trying to espouse their unrelated viewpoints using the pane…
Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry
#307Earlier quoted context omitted.
> that's unacceptable for this role Do we really need to play facts opinion? In a discussion about ethics you include as many viewpoints possible or it become dishonest immediately. You are not a priest or something like that. It has taken too long to accept premised authority.
I don't accept people who advocate suppressing the rights of trans people as members of society. I'm fine if you judge me for that or think I'm moralizing, because I am. I can live with that.
I do consider myself morally and intellectually superior but I do fight for you to have the same rights as me and everyone else despite that and I welcome your dissent.
Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry
#308This is a shameful situation. We need to all wake up and take a step back and realize what's happening here: increasingly you can't have a conversation about one issue unless you are a hundred percent pure in the eyes of a frankly self-proclaimed judge jury and executioner for 100% of your other views. I am of the left myself but on a meta-level what we're doing is essentially making it impossible to ever find middle…
Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry
#309Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm underwhelmed. In this specific example, the individual in question could've gotten out ahead of the press cycle and explained herself. That she didn't means the beliefs she holds as reported probably are her beliefs, and yeah---that's unacceptable for this role. This isn't thoughtless litmus-testing; this is "Google has a track record of errors regarding its trans userbase and is a company that specifically wants…
> that's unacceptable for this role. As determined by who? You? Being transphobic (or racist or vegetarian or religious or egalitarian or...) is something that people are allowed to be, no matter how much someone else dislikes that.
Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry
#310Earlier quoted context omitted.
So if you want a council on the exploration of space should you include a few flat-Earthers?
Probably not. That would be equivalent to including someone who claims "radiation from computers interferes with your brain" on this AI panel, or perhaps someone who claims "krakens pose an immediate danger to inattentive sailors" on a maritime safety council.
... or somebody with a reputation of unethical behavior being on an ethics committee.