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Java 12

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Re: Java 12

#301

Post by tannhaeuser »

MarkMc wrote: post #214

I'm so glad I was taught Java at Macquarie University back in 1998. For the past 20 years I've had a career built on a solid API that doesn't change every 2 years like some flavour-of-the-month Javascript framework. Even on the client where Java has lost to Javascript, I'm finding it more enjoyable to add features to my 15-year-old SWT app [0] rather than dealing with the multiple layers of abstractions that is Javas…

The times of ever-changing JavaScript frontend frameworks is long behind us (and, arguably, React has won for MVw-style browser apps). The core node.js web serving APIs (expressjs and core http request API, which expressjs middlewares forwards and decorates) is stable since node.js v0.1 or at least 2015, and infinitely better than Java's servlet, JSP, and taglib APIs (web.xml/jetty-config.xml anyone?).

The flip side of Java's stability is stagnation. On the server-side, customers use mostly Spring/Spring Boot these days to make Java's overengineered stack usable, using even more over-engineering and metaprogramming. Same with maven/gradle, which turns what should be a developer-focussed build system into an enterprise XML mess.

SWT? I'm glad it works for you. Last I heard, IBM had pulled out of developing Eclipse and SWT/RCP over ten years ago. In the one project where we used it, the app looked like an IDE, and customers hated, then cancelled it. Designed as wrappers for OS-native GUI controls, it has even less of a place in a browser than Swing had. Last I looked, of the Java rich-client frameworks, only Swing has been updated with HIDPI support, whereas JavaFX and SWT haven't. None is using any of those (with the exception of experimental JFX apps) for new apps in this decade.

Re: Java 12

#302

Post by ksec »

MarkMc wrote: post #214

I'm so glad I was taught Java at Macquarie University back in 1998. For the past 20 years I've had a career built on a solid API that doesn't change every 2 years like some flavour-of-the-month Javascript framework. Even on the client where Java has lost to Javascript, I'm finding it more enjoyable to add features to my 15-year-old SWT app [0] rather than dealing with the multiple layers of abstractions that is Javas…

>Google would have been a better steward, and probably would have been willing to pay more for the Java parts of Sun.

They didn't and Google didn't want a pay a single dollar to Sun on Java. As James Gosling has mentioned multiple times. I don't understand why people are still painting Google as Saint after all these years.

Re: Java 12

#303

Post by iGoog »

throwawayEntDev wrote: post #228
iGoog wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gotta ask what in particular "problems" C# solves over Java, and I'm not talking about J2SE 1.4. Having dipped into C#, it feels like the designers resented OOP and reusable code. C# is not the new kid on the block and is almost 20 years old now.

Over that 20 years, C# has been continuously improved with language features added at a faster rate than Java. Some examples: * properties * LINQ * async/await * dynamic types * better generics * inferred typing - `var` * null conditional operators * custom iterators - `yield` * pattern matching Also, .net is more of a “pit of success” language — Java with all its legacy baggage requires a lot more knowledge to avoid…

so... properties that require a steeper learning curve, a system that's worse far worse than JPA+Spring Data (or you could use the hibernate in both languages - a java development), another word for var/let, I'd disagree about generics, var/let again, I wonder what rust devs would say about these null inline conditionals that require more knowledge, and... yield is actually neat if also not another non-traditional baggage thing to learn. Anyhow, I guess my take is that Rust is a better language than C# in all the ways that C# might be better than Java and more... Except that C# is a lot like Java and is the language of choice if you use Unity - so it does have a big awesome ugly library that Java does not have. Really we should feel sorry about all the Unity baggage C# devs get to deal with. Then there's Microsoft land, which has not inspired me of code quality and can't get out of VB think.

Re: Java 12

#304

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

antpls wrote: post #297
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trivial reference-counting can lead to memory leaks when you have an object graph that’s disjoint from an RC root object. Non-trivial reference counting starts to look like mark-and-sweep GC. And even then, when a ref count drops to zero, the runtime cost of destruction and deallocation of particular objects can be expensive. Stop-the-world GC is bad, but “make a blocking call because you can’t use async APIs in dest…

From my understanding of Rust, you will still pay the runtime cost of destruction and deallocation of objects with the object lifetime system ? It's like reference counting, but precomputed by the compiler. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Right. It’s just easier to reason about the process with Rust’s ownership system compared to a reference-counting or GC system.

Re: Java 12

#305

Post by potatosareok »

geophile wrote: post #15

Are they ever going to release value types?

I get Java needs it because some uses need the performance gain in terms of less ram and less pointer interdirection. I'm glad library authors of like servers or caches will be able to improve performance without weird things like unsafe byte buffers and native memory leaks.

I suspect I won't ever use value types in my code though unless it's drop in to refactor from AnyVal=>AnyRef (or w/e the java equiv is).

* Does accepting a value type parameter accept it by value or by ref? * How does this play with GC? Can I get dangling ref with value type? * How does value types play with inheritance e.g. will it be like c# and struct and they will be boxed any time treated as ref? * How safe will it be to convert a class from being value type based to Object (w/e AnyRef equiv is). Will I need to inspect all methods that deal it now?

This can probably just be resolved with a style guide like c++ can be mostly sane if you're starting a new project today with an aggressive style guide, but I just appreciated not think about this and just count on escape analysis + gc + hotspot tricks like monomorphize code paths with some counters to be good enough.

Re: Java 12

#306

Post by chvid »

vbezhenar wrote: post #137
aardvark179 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding values is a huge task because they are a big change at the VM, language, and library level. You can read about some of the latest plans in draft form at https://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/valhalla-spec-expert... . Rest assured progress is being made.

Sounds like we won't have them in the next LTS, so probably another 5 years at least.

Next lts is 14 which is due in a year as I understand the new release schedule.

Re: Java 12

#307

Post by euyyn »

zmmmmm wrote: post #105
ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

It's fascinating reading a post like this because I feel exactly the same from the opposite perspective. I feel bad for people trying to write in other languages and manually re-inventing dozens of features the JVM ecosystem just gives you for free. In many ways, the whole container-push has been essentially people trying to achieve what the JVM already gave you (isolation, cross platform, etc etc). I still don't see…

> the whole container-push has been essentially people trying to achieve what the JVM already gave you (isolation, cross platform, etc etc)

Google did containers in Borg many years ago, and many of its servers are written in Java.

Re: Java 12

#308

Post by pjmlp »

james_s_tayler wrote: post #286
pjmlp wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone that works with both stacks since their inception, there are tons of platforms with Java compilers, where .NET Core isn't even a thing today, and there are tons of .NET libraries that will never leave .NET Framework. So it isn't like just exchanging one for the other like that.

I'm finding library support quite good for .NET Core tbh. Not perfect, but it's not at all a barrier to adoption.

Try to port any commercial component library to it like Telerik and friends, ODP.NET, WCF, EF 6, Forms, WPF.

.NET Core 3.0 will fix some of the compatibility issues but not all of them, for example EF 6 will only be partially supported (VS DB tooling is not being updated for Core).

Re: Java 12

#309

Post by vbsteven »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #301
MarkMc wrote: post #214

I'm so glad I was taught Java at Macquarie University back in 1998. For the past 20 years I've had a career built on a solid API that doesn't change every 2 years like some flavour-of-the-month Javascript framework. Even on the client where Java has lost to Javascript, I'm finding it more enjoyable to add features to my 15-year-old SWT app [0] rather than dealing with the multiple layers of abstractions that is Javas…

The times of ever-changing JavaScript frontend frameworks is long behind us (and, arguably, React has won for MVw-style browser apps). The core node.js web serving APIs (expressjs and core http request API, which expressjs middlewares forwards and decorates) is stable since node.js v0.1 or at least 2015, and infinitely better than Java's servlet, JSP, and taglib APIs (web.xml/jetty-config.xml anyone?). The flip side…

You can call Spring (boot) over-engineered. I call it feature full and extensible.

Whereas in the modern JS world, you start out with a lean project and then add small libraries from NPM that all work slightly different for every feature you need, in the Spring world where the framework has matured for 10+ years most of the things you will need are in the box or are available as external libraries that all work on the same defined interfaces.

Spring Boot with Java 11 or Kotlin are still my preferred backend stack for that reason. It’s solid, has aged well and makes me super productive.

Re: Java 12

#310

Post by gigatexal »

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #294
gigatexal wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biggest barrier to entry for me is the build dependency system Maven. And I never understood Ant. I did like the language when I played around with Java 8. Streams are amazing.

Maven is an incredible system. It can do so much and yet, even though I've setup countless apps and services, I can never use it without looking literally everything up. Maven and spring are the worst parts, for me, when dealing with Java. I don't mind the language at all.

Yeah I felt the same. The language is fine. It’s got a fantastic set of libraries and a large ecosystem and one would be hard pressed to not find a job being a competent Java dev but maven ugh
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