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Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

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Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#301

Post by RomanPushkin »

dudul wrote: post #170
RomanPushkin wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a problem with homework, candidate spends couple of hours and you spend couple of minutes to assess candidates. It's not fair. Google doesn't do that, Netflix doesn't do that. Why anyone would believe random startup and spend their weekend unless you're desperate looking for any job?

It is both true and false. Yes, the candidate may spend 1 hour (I don't give difficult homework exercises) while it takes me 15 to 20 minutes to review the submission, but I have to do it for maybe 5 candidates. I totally understand the main criticism for homework, it takes time, the company may never call you back after you poured 2 hours into their stupid exercise. But it is an attempt at fixing all other alternati…

> the candidate may spend 1 hour

> after you poured 2 hours

and at the end it turns out to be 5-10 hours. Companies say "you should be able to finish it in 1-2 hours", but it's almost never true.

I think alternative is to have 1 hour coding session on a good problem. Most problems are complicated, but there could be something else. I was once asked by Uber to implement timer in JavaScript that will update DOM, also create APIs to stop/start/pause. This kind of a challenge doesn't involve any algorithm, but it shows your ability to code.

It should be enough to bring you onsite.

But I open source should work. If you contributed to Linux Kernel and it was accepted - onsite no questions asked. If you have github repo of 1000+ stars - onsite no questions asked. If you have already passed Google tech screen and was invited onsite - invite onsite no questions asked.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#302

Post by beefalo »

RomanPushkin wrote: post #89
dudul wrote: post #42

This article makes a lot of good points. After going through the "implement a red-black tree on this whiteboard" experience as a more junior dev, I always promised myself I would never use this kind of stupid questions to hire. Now, 13 years later, I mostly rely on "homework" type exercises. I think they address most of the issues. They are more "real world", no time pressure, etc. However, even those now are being h…

There is a problem with homework, candidate spends couple of hours and you spend couple of minutes to assess candidates. It's not fair. Google doesn't do that, Netflix doesn't do that. Why anyone would believe random startup and spend their weekend unless you're desperate looking for any job?

Some teams at Netflix do interview homework.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#303

Post by Frost1x »

pmiller2 wrote: post #164
gonehome wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels very much like that to me which is why it’s strange there isn’t a Kaplan equivalent. There’s interview cake and leetcode, but I think people would pay $2k for a class that focuses on the questions and in person whiteboard practice. They could collect information about the interviews at the major companies and then use those to create the program. For payment could also help candidates negotiate and then take…

Those courses are out there. I saw one for $5k and ran for, IIRC, 8 weeks, that covered the entire interview process.

I've noticed several groups that offer SE interview specific training out there now that I'm stepping through this interview process after the landscape has changed since my last position.

It's funny that after doing some searching, many proponents of this widely adopted and poorly researched interviewing methodology appear to be running businesses selling training for these interview processes... surprise, surprise.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#304

Post by wolfgke »

nine_k wrote: post #300
wolfgke wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have kids. Developing a sentient being is a higher priority and more difficult than developing React Redux. This is like saying: "I have a time-intense hobby that I prefer over working too much for you.".

Rather: I work for you to finance the really important things in my life. You work to live, not the other way around.

> Rather: I work for you to finance the really important things in my life.

> You work to live, not the other way around.

At least if you work in (academic) research, working to live simply does not work [pun intended]. The things that you work on in this area are the really important things in life.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#305

Post by alboy »

wolfgke wrote: post #293
alboy wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if the added friction of changing your place of work caused by this practice is meant to somewhat counterbalance the heavy incentives engineers have to job-hop in the current climate. Kind of makes sense from the point of view of tech employers.

> I wonder if the added friction of changing your place of work caused by this practice is meant to somewhat counterbalance the heavy incentives engineers have to job-hop in the current climate. Kind of makes sense from the point of view of tech employers. I am not sure what to think about this claim: it is the other company that prevents you from working for them by this interview process. The current employer has t…

Time spent by a new employee learning the ropes is time wasted from the perspective of an individual employer-actor. On the surface, it sounds similar enough to the iterated prisoner's dilemma so I'm inclined to think that a greedy strategy would do poorly here.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#306

Post by lenocinor »

bobthepanda wrote: post #202
whatshisface wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for people over 50 who have probably realized there is more to life, why would some demographics be willing to grind less than others? Edit: By "over 50," I mean age demographics in general, which is the main thing that raises your family obligations. The only demographic division that I can think of that would reduce someone's willingness to abandon their personal life would be age.

I don't think you need to be over 50 to realize there's more to life. Some demographics are less likely to live to work v. working to live. Some demographics may not have time to juggle interview grinding with other responsibilities (children, existing job(s), etc.)

This. I don't have kids and I'm not over 50, but I agree with those people (if they hold this belief); not just philosophically, but also because I want to see a more diverse workforce in software development.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#307

Post by bitwize »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #289
zanny wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe for a second it requires "natural aptitude" to program. The problem is any programming curriculum starts with a text editor open. If a developer-to-be doesn't understand the framing context of what they are doing they are being dropped in a lake with no sense of direction. Its why all the "naturals" started as geeks who played with computers from a young age. You learned about the environment you woul…

We convinced our parents to buy a computer because it would help our education when all we really wanted one for was playing computer games. Joke was on us though, because playing computer games at the time usually involved a lot of putzing around and figuring out how stuff worked, ultimately teaching us marketable skills.

I had zero games for my VIC-20. It was strictly a BASIC machine. (Later I had a TI-99/4A which had a few.) My dad is a kind of super-polymath, and in the early 80s he bought a computer and learned how to use and program it so he could grind out solutions to mechanical-engineering equations. He saw me become hooked on BASIC and went down to Crazy Eddie's to pick up the VIC for me so I wouldn't bother him on his rather expensive machine.

The personal computer grew up alongside us xennials, and some of us were just drawn to it, even without the promise of video games.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#308

Post by drugme »

wolfgke wrote: post #288
sunir wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have kids. Developing a sentient being is a higher priority and more difficult than developing React Redux.

> They have kids. Developing a sentient being is a higher priority and more difficult than developing React Redux. This is like saying: "I have a time-intense hobby that I prefer over working too much for you.".

No, it's called having a life and a sense of proportion.

The sooner tech companies learn to embrace and work with this very basic fact, the better.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#309

Post by warp_factor »

drblast wrote: post #273

Google recruiters call me a lot. I think I'd do a good if not stellar job working there. I've passed multiple FAANG interviews and been very successful as a senior developer. In my email I have an "interview prep packet" from them that essentially tells me to brush up on algorithms and read Cracking the Coding Interview to prepare for their interview process. I'm fairly happy in my job. If they offered more money or…

You wouldn't be a good fit for Google. With their algorithmic interviews that require college-grad level of studying, they filter for people that are ready to follow orders without complaining.

That's who they want to hire at the end of the day: some coders that don't get too critical about their job and do what they are asked to do, even if it is repetitive, stupid and doesn't really make sense (such as re-studying algorithms implementation details for two weeks before an interview when it can be looked up super-easily online).

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#310

Post by WilliamEdward »

djhworld wrote: post #57
davidhyde wrote: post #25

I think that asking a candidate to perform a code review can be an effective method of evaluating quite a few desirable qualities. Can they understand someone else's code? Can they engage in constructive critical discussion? Are they able to effectively refactor something to make it better? Can they spot mistakes and do they have an opinion about how to avoid such mistakes?

Yeah that's great but what if they can't reverse a binary tree?

I know you're joking but... If i had never heard of a binary tree, saw it for the first time in my interview, and didn't at least have an idea of how to attempt solving it, I'm probably a lousy hire. The quality of attempt is what these hard questions are really about.
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