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DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

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Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#301

Post by briandear »

t0astbread wrote: post #264
aphextron wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wish they were explaining why they moved away from Mapbox and OSM in general! Because it sucks. Isn’t that obvious? There’s no point in having a feature that nobody uses. I switched to DDG a few months ago and this has always been the one weakness. This is really good news IMO. Apple maps has come a long long way since launch, and their data is about on par with Google at this point. You can argue all day that of…

You're forgetting one detail that I think should be emphasized here: OSM is about free knowledge (as in freedom). You can use, modify and share OSM data however you want. Apple on the other hand is hoarding its information. You can only access it through their products in the ways they intended. They control everything (as always). I do believe it when Apple says they're respecting their users' privacy, just like I b…

> You can use, modify and share OSM data however you want.

You are still free to do that with OSM. Not sure what that has to do with DDG. Just because they don't want to use OSM, doesn't change any of your rights to using OSM.

> Apple on the other hand is hoarding its information.

You are free to requisition a fleet of mapping vehicles, drones and satellites and gather your own maps information and share it with whomever you want. If Apple is the one paying a ton of money to create their information, I'm not sure why it's surprising that they want to use that information in their products.

You don't have a right to Apple's mapping data any more than you have a right to Colonel Sanders's chicken recipe -- however, nothing is stopping you from making your own chicken recipe and sharing it with whomever you want. You could even start a community around sharing chicken recipes. That some people don't care about chicken recipe secrecy doesn't harm your rights to enjoy chicken with recipes created and shared by you or your friends. Some of us actually just want to buy some fried chicken and not worry about the provenance of the recipe. We have more important priorities (for us) than the openness of a private company's chicken preparation secrets. We just want good tasting chicken. Many of us aren't chicken enthusiasts, spending our time lamenting the secrecy of the Colonel's chicken choices.

What it really sounds like the source of your complaint is that if DDG doesn't continue to use OSM, then perhaps OSM will suffer for it. If that's the real origin of your disdain for this decision, then perhaps OSM isn't as valuable in the marketplace of ideas as people might think it is. However, if this actually doesn't affect OSM (I don't think it does,) then that means that DDG can use whatever they want and the OSM folks can happily share to their heart's content.

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#302

Post by garmaine »

latexr wrote: post #253
aphextron wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wish they were explaining why they moved away from Mapbox and OSM in general! Because it sucks. Isn’t that obvious? There’s no point in having a feature that nobody uses. I switched to DDG a few months ago and this has always been the one weakness. This is really good news IMO. Apple maps has come a long long way since launch, and their data is about on par with Google at this point. You can argue all day that of…

> Apple maps has come a long long way since launch, and their data is about on par with Google at this point. Not in Portugal, or most places in Europe where I’ve tried it. They are so far behind it’s not even funny.

Or most of east Asia. It won’t even find what you’re looking for most of the time, let alone give sensible directions.

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#303

Post by cromwellian »

specialist wrote: post #271
izacus wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also make a lot of money in China where betraying their users privacy was required to enter. And that was almost the same week then their CEO, Tim Cook, told on camera that privacy is "fundamental human right". I guess he doesn't consider Chinese people human.

What would you have done?

How about withdrawl, like Google did?

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#304

Post by zaksoup »

cageface wrote: post #285

I’m a bit concerned about how much data Google has on me and I do think Apple is genuinely more concerned about user privacy. But what’s the difference in practical terms really? Google uses my data to target ads at me but doesn’t actually give any of my data to its ad-buying customers. Apple doesn’t do this but is obliged to turn over my iCloud data to the government with a subpoena. Since this is really the scenari…

Seems to me like one of the key differences is in how much data is actually collected. DDG claims in their blog post that they send no PII to apple, they're just using apple to provide a map view and search data.

I'm not even sure this level of anonymized usage is possible with google's APIs.

Edit: I just had the experience of trying to use biking directions in google maps the other day. In order to enable actual turn-by-turn directions I had to turn on something called "Web and App activity" which, as best as I can tell, is an unbelievably invasive set of technologies designed to track you across websites, real locations, and non-google owned apps using google APIs.

There's a real and meaningful difference in the amount and depth of the data collected by google vs. its competitors. I think a huge motivating factor for why google collects that data is their ad-driven revenue model.

To tie it back to your original question: Sure we could all just not use cloud services but in the mean time there are clear differences in how vulnerable you are to privacy violations by nation-states through legal means based on how much data various cloud services are actively trying to collect on you.

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#305

Post by dhritzkiv »

joeblau wrote: post #123
cygned wrote: post #50

When DuckDuckGo is set to a dark theme, the map is also in dark mode! To me, that is an incredible valuable feature. Edit: which is a fallback to Mapbox, no Apple Maps feature.

That's interesting because Apple Maps supports dark mode on the Mac[1]. [1] - https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/9km62p/apple_maps_tran...

It's also supported in MapKitJS as of the latest version (5.13.0)[1]

[1] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/mapkitjs/mapkit_js...

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#306

Post by bduerst »

morganvachon wrote: post #248
bduerst wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? Apple shared all their iCloud user data (messages, pics, docs, etc.) and keys with the Chinese government last year. [1] Apple even updated their TOS forcing Chinese users to agree to it or drop service. [2] Google got flak for just considering it with Dragonfly, but Apple actually did it . [1] https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-d... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-i…

> Apple shared all their iCloud user data (messages, pics, docs, etc.) and keys with the Chinese government last year. [1] They shared all their Chinese users' iCloud data. It's a huge distinction and I feel like you paraphrased it deliberately to try to make Apple appear to have sold out all of their users worldwide. While what they did in China is terrifying in general, it doesn't compromise security for any Apple…

Google's Dragonfly was the same thing - sharing "only" Chinese user data.

GPs comparison was privacy between the two companies, and one cares more about selling in China than the privacy of it's users.

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#307

Post by GeekyBear »

ehsankia wrote: post #294
GeekyBear wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Google announced to their advertising customers that they were buying everyone's credit card data, that was my own personal bridge too far. >Google has been able to track your location using Google Maps for a long time. Since 2014, it has used that information to provide advertisers with information on how often people visit their stores. But store visits aren’t purchases, so, as Google said in a blog post on it…

That's a very misleading way of putting it. From your own article: > In addition, Google does not know what products people bought.

Of course not. Whose credit card statement includes a listing of the individual items you purchased at a store during a particular transaction?

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#308

Post by bduerst »

abalone wrote: post #228
bduerst wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Added sources. Apple moved the keys for accessing the data at rest to Chinese servers, which were nationalized by the Chinese government. The Chinese government has access to the users' data at rest and the keys to decrypt it.

This does not affect E2E encrypted data like iMessage. Apple doesn’t have those keys to give.[1] [1] https://www.apple.com/business/site/docs/iOS_Security_Guide....

Your messages are stored on iCloud, right?

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#309

Post by SubMachineGhost »

cageface wrote: post #285

I’m a bit concerned about how much data Google has on me and I do think Apple is genuinely more concerned about user privacy. But what’s the difference in practical terms really? Google uses my data to target ads at me but doesn’t actually give any of my data to its ad-buying customers. Apple doesn’t do this but is obliged to turn over my iCloud data to the government with a subpoena. Since this is really the scenari…

> Google uses my data to target ads at me but doesn’t actually give any of my data to its ad-buying customers. Apple doesn’t do this but is obliged to turn over my iCloud data to the government with a subpoena.

I agree with you, but Google is way more aggressive in its data collection behavior than apple and i am getting sick of that.

I have been using Google maps this past month and i noticed some dark patterns :

- after getting directions from `your current location` when you deactivate your location services and switch apps, google maps will delete the directions and resets to the page that asks you to chose a `from` location, now you have to give google your current location to get those directions back.

- you cannot get your `current location` without internet enabled, even when you have `location services` enabled.

Re: DuckDuckGo will use Apple Maps

#310

Post by smokeyj »

reificator wrote: post #277
smokeyj wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a DDG user I share your same skepticism. But I also believe that privacy will become a premium feature, even a symbol of status - similar to the iPhone/iMessage today. Poor people will buy devices that are subsidized with "targeted advertisements" and Facebook apps they can't uninstall. The premium market will pay to not deal with this nonsense.

> The premium market will pay to not deal with this nonsense. And thus stand out for targeting purposes regardless.

Targeting works the more data you have. You could target “well off iOS user” but that’s less invasive than “searched topics of adoption and abortion. Recommend local abortion clinics”. Ya see what I’m getting at here?
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