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NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

theguardian.com

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Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#301

Post by bradleyjg »

ricardoreis wrote: post #238
CydeWeys wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the ferries are heavily subsidized and very expensive to operate, and they pollute quite heavily. They don't compare remotely favorably to the subway along any axis except start-up cost (it's cheaper to buy a boat and build some piers than to build a subway tunnel).

except start-up cost Which is, well, hugely significant when you think about it.

Even if you could afford to run enough ferries to make a dent, which you can’t, they simply don’t have the bandwidth.

Some people tried to make the math work for the L shutdown and even if you had a line of ferries just following each other as close as safely possible it wouldn’t be nearly enough. Subways are incredibly efficient at moving large numbers of people.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#302

Post by nicoburns »

Retric wrote: post #123
whack wrote: post #99

This is a really depressing story to read. I've always believed that a good indicator of a country's health, is its ability to tackle complex large-scale projects. Projects that require coordination on multiple fronts: politics, bureaucracy, technical-know-how, civic sacrifice. In the old days when all this infrastructure was built in the first place, we showed our ability to do so. But now, we've gotten to the point…

These problems are really common with 50+ year old infrastructure. Looks at the NYC subway from 50 or even 70 years ago and it looks about the same as it does now: Now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway_map#/medi... 1968: https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/irvingtr... 1948: https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/system_1... The problem is basic day to day maintenance is…

Indeed, the problem is that money hasn't been invested in modernisation.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#303

Post by JohnTHaller »

dbmyh wrote: post #127
codyb wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That really hurts most a lot of poor people who work odd hours. Then suddenly they have to find a way home or two work that will be much more expensive and eat into their earnings. I'm not sure what the solution is, but "that's really all there is to it" will affect very negatively hundreds of thousands of people in NYC.

They can take the bus. Don't you have night buses?

Most bus routes in NYC only run once an hour between midnight and 5am on weekdays. Many don't run at all on the weekends between midnight and 5am.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#304

Post by JohnTHaller »

nakedrobot2 wrote: post #33
WAthrowaway wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are already doing this for several lines. The L wasn't running on weekends at all in November for them to do repairs. NYC is unique in that there are LOTS of people whose working hours fall into that range and they rely on the subway. Just shutting down the whole system is unfeasible.

Please stop this unique snowflake claim about NYC :+) It's another huge City. Besides having a horribly mismanaged public transport, it's not unique. Except that it's, you know, the center of the universe of course. ;-)

The NYC subway system has more stations than any other subway system in the world. 29% more than next most station-rich system.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#305

Post by culturestate »

afterburner wrote: post #295
culturestate wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NYC subway fares are insanely cheap compared to the rest of the (developed) world. $2.75 single for any distance is incredibly low. Europe isn't the only "developed world," mate. My morning commute in Hong Kong (which is roughly the same distance as Brooklyn to the LES or, say, King's Cross to Paddington) costs around $0.50. I can go all the way to mainland China for ~$3.00. $2.75 is roughly the maximum fare in Tok…

Calm down, he didn't say it was the absolute cheapest, just that it was cheap. As a side note, there sure are a lot of people in China that get prickly about the definition of "developed".

I'm neither upset nor in China; just pointing out that if you expand your definition of the "developed world" beyond Europe and the US, the NYC MTA goes from "insanely cheap" to comparably priced or even mildly expensive :)

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#306

Post by jimmy1 »

TheSoftwareGuy wrote: post #255
dwaltrip wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars and roads have plenty of problems, sure, but I have no idea what you mean by this "illusion of freedom".

He's likely referring to how (some) people enjoy driving because of the sense of freedom & control it gives them. But he is asserting that this is just an illusion. Honestly, I feel the same way, since most time I spend driving I spend sitting in traffic or something.

There are few things I get more enjoyment out of than driving a car that corners well through a beautiful mountainous road like the Blue Ridge Parkway through the Appalachian, or up through Yosemite from Fresno.

When I need to clear my head, I still hop in the car and go for a drive with music. Not also afraid to admit -- I've had some of my most cathartic, emotional-cleansing crys in the vehicle by myself.

In this day and age where there are fewer and fewer places to go to truly be alone with one's own thoughts, sometimes my vehicle is my own personal sanctuary.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#307

Post by cascom »

foldr wrote: post #281
cascom wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you mean $31/hr + medical + pension and medical in retirement... again for teachers you are forgetting the fact that they have similar generous benefits and only work 3/4 of the year...

Everyone should have medical + pension + medical in retirement. How did America get to a place where healthcare and pensions are regarded as perks?

That’s a nice sentiment - in that case we should all work in the public sector and and get those things...oh yeah....

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#308

Post by akvadrako »

foldr wrote: post #281
cascom wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you mean $31/hr + medical + pension and medical in retirement... again for teachers you are forgetting the fact that they have similar generous benefits and only work 3/4 of the year...

Everyone should have medical + pension + medical in retirement. How did America get to a place where healthcare and pensions are regarded as perks?

That's not the point - if you are comparing wages you need to take into account benefits. $30/hour might not be great by itself, but $30 + $10/hour in benefits is.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#309

Post by InclinedPlane »

New York City's walkability and public transit are easily one of its greatest, most important, and most valuable features. It's a shame that there's been such a revolt against local taxation over the last 30-40 years. Our big cities are the lifeblood of our modern technological economy. And yet we are under-investing in them drastically. But it's absolutely an affordable problem, we have the money we just balk at talking on the responsibilities properly, we want to pretend that if we temporize and half-ass our way there the problems (not just transit but housing and opioids and so forth) will just take care of themselves or spontaneously disappear. That is an immature and unrealistic stance. We need to govern ourselves, we need to take care of and maintain our own cities and our own people. If we continue to fail to do so it won't just be public transit in one city in a death spiral, it'll be the whole entire country headed the way of a failed state. And it'll happen a lot sooner and a lot faster than you might expect.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#310

Post by InclinedPlane »

weatherlight wrote: post #139

This has little to do with the MTA Union and everything to do with Blasio resisting committing more money to the MTA unless he was guaranteed by Cuomo that the money would go towards the subways and subway throughput, and not other MTA services. Cuomo Controls the MTA; Not the City, or the City Mayor, that's 99% of the problem. Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo’s planned to add amenities like new lighting and USB ports at nearly…

Seattle has kind of a similar problem. They can't just raise local taxes to pay for local transit. So instead the state has to decide on most Seattle transit projects (and their funding), and of course all of the conservatives east of the mountains bridle at the idea of their money being spent on those big city liberals instead of locally even though the balance of tax revenues and spending means money flows the other way. It's infuriating.
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