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‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

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Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#301

Post by jasonm23 »

ocschwar wrote: post #160
bradenb wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's because you love your job, you have to pay for that. I don't buy that. I don't think enjoying your job and being paid well need to be mutually exclusive. I think it's in an employer's best interest that their employees enjoy their job. Part of that is that an employee has to not feel the stress of being underpaid or overworked.

They're not mutually exclusive, but they are negatively correlated. The more enjoyable a job is, the lower the salary the boss can offer before people balk at taking it. It isn't something you can suss out in individual cases, but statistically speaking it holds up. When I sysadminned in the turn of the millenium, I could definitely see the pay gap between running systems for corporate America and doing it for scient…

I may be misreading, but it seems you're looking for an antonym of balk.

Balk:

Hesitate or be unwilling to accept an idea or proposal.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#302

Post by kiriakasis »

kansface wrote: post #227
AlexandrB wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of post-facto justification for poor working conditions or wages needs a name, so it can be dismissed out of hand. It seems to assume that the market is “fair” and getting poor pay must be justified by some other factor about the job. In reality, there are plenty of jobs that have garbage pay and suck. As well as jobs that are both lucrative and “easy”. Consider the average CEO: not the exceptional visionar…

> In western societies, no job should pay less than a living wage... Pay is determined chiefly by supply and demand in the labor market. Jobs that are more fun pay less because the supply of workers is higher. Fairness is literally not part of this equation. > On the other side of the ledger, you have immigrants with medical degrees, who are driving cabs for minimum wage. Medical licenses are controlled by the govern…

I am quite on the left I would say (not from or in the US), so

>why should we pay a high school paperboy a living wage?

My opinion is that it is everyone responsibility to create a society were were abject poverty and marginalization is minimized. There are many tools to our disposal, paying a living wage is one.

The point is do you have a problem of people working as paperboy and not being able to live properly? Then you either pay them more or try to make other jobs possible for them. We should be careful not to do it immorally, we should not just "give" to the poor, but we should make sure that they have always a chance to rise.

I do not think of this as a moral obligation to help other, it is simply my answer to the question: Do you want an entire demographic to be hopeless and disillusioned? I do not and I believe sorta high living wages are a good tool often.

ps: this is not meant to be an argumentation for anything, there are no proof or facts in this comments, just heartfelt personal opinions. I find those pretty useful sometimes and hope mines can help too.

edit: the parent was referring to non-adults paperboy, my answer completely ignores the very important concept of families which are particularly important for non-adults

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#303

Post by ma2rten »

ryanbrunner wrote: post #269
p1necone wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My assumption with mission statements was that they were always bullshit made up by a marketing team or some exec and I wouldn't expect them to have much relation to reality. Was I in the minority?

Ironically I think Facebook is one example that (at least in the early days) had values that actually had teeth. "Move fast and break things" isn't just a feel-good truism like most values that companies come up with are. It's something that at least some people are going to disagree with, and it's something that can actually be instructive when making a decision at that company. I don't personally agree with it, but…

That was their motto, but didn't they also have a mission statement that was about connecting people?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#304

Post by wesleytodd »

spike021 wrote: post #181
wesleytodd wrote: post #46

Personal anecdote: I was contacted by a facebook recruiter a few years ago. I started the process and also started thinking about if I would like working there. I realized that I disagree strongly with the product, its effects on society, culture and politics. But more importantly I realized I hadn't used the product in like 3 years. I just said no thanks before even finishing the "take home" exercise. At the time I…

>But more importantly I realized I hadn't used the product in like 3 years. How does this matter? Most people don't personally use the products they work on. If someone works on software in flight computers (I don't know the proper term), in most cases I doubt they're pilots actively using said software. I certainly don't personally use the products I work on for my job. A job is a job. Sure some people find work "do…

I didn't intend to imply it was standard. In fact I meant that it was not standard and that is why I was lucky.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#305

Post by ethbro »

p1necone wrote: post #246
nemild wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

My assumption with mission statements was that they were always bullshit made up by a marketing team or some exec and I wouldn't expect them to have much relation to reality. Was I in the minority?

Tech is generally worse. Mostly because there's no check on hyperbole.

Most businesses have an official mission statement to the effect of: "Help people do {x} at a competitive price."

Only a 23 year old CEO says things like "Changing the world by connecting people."

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#306

Post by Karrot_Kream »

Jonanin wrote: post #275
elefanten wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. No, it's not reasonable to assume a technology-sector investor isn't going to be able to help techie friends find jobs. 2. The "slander" was supported by an anecdote. And this is a comment section -- opinionated statements will be found. 3. What might be closer to slander is the fantastic assumption that the other commenter is shilling for a short position in Facebook. That's a mind-boggling assumption to make on…

I'm not "curiously silent" on my own bias. What do you want me to say exactly? You're trying really hard to paint the same picture you're criticizing, namely that I'm some sort of shill. I think the idea that everyone at FB who doesn't leave immediately is a "mediocre sell-out" is very far from the truth, and contrary to my own experience. Thus I'm suspicious of people who claim such. There's already enough people on…

> I think the idea that everyone at FB who doesn't leave immediately is a "mediocre sell-out" is very far from the truth, and contrary to my own experience. Thus I'm suspicious of people who claim such.

You are so self-assured about your position that you immediately take the contrary assertion to be in _bad faith_? This seems silly to me, but perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#307

Post by samstave »

p1necone wrote: post #246
nemild wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

My assumption with mission statements was that they were always bullshit made up by a marketing team or some exec and I wouldn't expect them to have much relation to reality. Was I in the minority?

Think of them as the "objective" section on a resume, something you really only tend to have early on in your career... as you get more experienced, you dont have an "objective" section any longer - and you realize that the only true objective-statement on a resume is "to get a paying job"...

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#308

Post by the_af »

marssaxman wrote: post #276
the_af wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The (in?)famous article Don't Call Yourself a Programmer [0] argues otherwise. The author warns against working for a startup, unless you're the founder or committed to what he calls a lifestyle. Instead, he argues you can work for a hi-tech big corp, enjoying autonomy and fun projects as well as a good work-life balance. Not that I agree with everything in that essay -- some pretty cynical and controversial statemen…

That's a great article. I especially love the bit about equity, which ought to be valued at $0 for all practical decision-making purposes. My experiences with the tech giants have featured neither autonomy, fun, nor anything resembling a work-life balance; they do pay well, but not well enough to make that kind of experience worthwhile. Life is here to be lived, not put off for later, and I'm not going to waste mine…

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I definitely agree that life's too short to waste it grinding away at tedious tasks. I'm certainly not arguing for doing boring stuff at a big corp!

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#309

Post by [deleted] »

Jonanin wrote: post #275
elefanten wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. No, it's not reasonable to assume a technology-sector investor isn't going to be able to help techie friends find jobs. 2. The "slander" was supported by an anecdote. And this is a comment section -- opinionated statements will be found. 3. What might be closer to slander is the fantastic assumption that the other commenter is shilling for a short position in Facebook. That's a mind-boggling assumption to make on…

I'm not "curiously silent" on my own bias. What do you want me to say exactly? You're trying really hard to paint the same picture you're criticizing, namely that I'm some sort of shill. I think the idea that everyone at FB who doesn't leave immediately is a "mediocre sell-out" is very far from the truth, and contrary to my own experience. Thus I'm suspicious of people who claim such. There's already enough people on…

[deleted]

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#310

Post by nemothekid »

ethbro wrote: post #305
p1necone wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My assumption with mission statements was that they were always bullshit made up by a marketing team or some exec and I wouldn't expect them to have much relation to reality. Was I in the minority?

Tech is generally worse. Mostly because there's no check on hyperbole. Most businesses have an official mission statement to the effect of: "Help people do {x} at a competitive price." Only a 23 year old CEO says things like "Changing the world by connecting people."

Amusingly enough, I’d argue Zuckerberg nailed that mission.
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