Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030 • Hacker News Board

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#301

Post by emiliobumachar » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:22 PM UTC

lsiunsuex wrote: post #221

Symbiote wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the growl / sound / smell. (I'll be pleased when none of these (or the pollution) is within a city, but that's not my main point.) > Playing with 240 volts of batteries (or whatever it is, lol) (if there's anything to play with) - not so much I'm thinking, lol... An engineer friend spends all his spare time tweaking an electric motorcycle. There's a lot to control in software, and although there are far fewer compo…

> An engineer friend spends all his spare time tweaking an electric motorcycle. There's a lot to control in software While an electric motorcycle might have a fairly simple ECU, something like my Mustang is a bit more complex. While software and hardware to modify the ECU coding yourself is available, as well as the training for it, most in the community highly advise against DIY and paying a pro (which most of us do…

"I've accepted the risk that if I get electrocuted, it's just me being screwed, vs if I screw up a plumbing solder, I can flood an entire house."

Whoever lives in the house could be more upset with your electrocution than with a flooded house, even if raw sewage was involved. That can be true even for strangers, and almost certainly for family members.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#302

Post by merb » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:24 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #288

wongarsu wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average European car is very different from the average US car. The most sold cars in the US are the Ford F series, in the EU it's the VW Golf and similar hatchbacks. There are a lot of forces at play here, among others tax rates (which cause the F150 to get bigger and European cars to get lighter), fuel prices, culture (in Europe a big truck won't impress anyone, you get other types of cars for that), average an…

That's kind of a bad comparison because the Ford F-Series (or any other pickup platform) is many different vehicles under one name.

basically in europe there are not a lot of pickups to none out there. in europe there is a trend for SUVs at the moment, but besides that we mostly buy limousines.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#303

Post by reaperducer » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:29 PM UTC

bodas wrote: post #117

eanzenberg wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, production of cars (and consumerism in general) is extremely bad for carbon emissions and for the environment. Carbon emissions from the production of 1 car generally rival the lifetime emissions from the tailpipe [1]. If you have no choice but to replace an old car for new then sure, get a more efficient one. If you're replacing cars every 3 years like an average westerner, given the age of cars I see…

That would be fine except that cars release poison into the air, old cars especially. Eventually banning ICE cars is an essential public health measure.

The irony is that the state that loves to pat itself on its back for being so environmentally conscious is also that last state where you could buy leaded gas in the U.S.

California: 1992.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#304

Post by amongwhales » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:36 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #289

wongarsu wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average European car is very different from the average US car. The most sold cars in the US are the Ford F series, in the EU it's the VW Golf and similar hatchbacks. There are a lot of forces at play here, among others tax rates (which cause the F150 to get bigger and European cars to get lighter), fuel prices, culture (in Europe a big truck won't impress anyone, you get other types of cars for that), average an…

in Europe nobody fantasizes about roadtrips That's an interesting tidbit. I always thought that they did. I thought the automotive term "GT" meant "Grand Tour" and was European in inspiration. That's what I get for culling most of my European auto culture information from Top Gear.

>in Europe nobody fantasizes about roadtrips

Even besides the German brands (VW, Mercedes, BMW), there are a huge number of European car manufacturers (Skoda, Peugeot, citroen) > showing ability and demand for cars in Europe. Also, the small size and mostly flat nature of Europe, cultural diversity, and longer vacation time all contribute to Europeans traveling more than Americans. Not to mention excellent roads, family/student hostels for less expensive trips (pre-Airbnb era) and obviously Visa free travel. So yes Europeans might not have the same idea of long distance road trips we have in the US but that is not to say they don't take the same trips or more than in the US

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#305

Post by Tade0 » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:45 PM UTC

Annatar wrote: post #108

tomp wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that hasn't stopped it from getting 50mpg ratings Is this the "50mpg under ideal laboratory conditions driven by an AI" or "as driven in a real city/highway by a human"?

I get 49 MPG in mixed mode driving on a Euro III emissions compliant diesel every day. Newer diesels are even more efficient. And I don't spare the accelerator either.

Euro 3 means you're probably not eligible to enter a good chunk number of European city centres - and for good reason.

As for MPG are you talking US gallons or imperial? Also what's your car's segment?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#306

Post by PopeDotNinja » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 11:12 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #121

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #26

I went to Denmark last year and spent two weeks driving all over the countryside, and likely would have been difficult to reach with an electric car. Many of the places I visited would not have been accessible via public transit. I'm curious how future generations will reach remote places as we move away from fossil fuels. BTW, I loved Denmark :)

Difficult why? It's a tiny country. Skagen (Northernmost tip) to Flensburg in Germany is ~402km. Skagen to Copenhagen (East) is 410km. The longest reasonable point to point journey in Denmark is in the 550km or so range (e.g. Skagen to Lolland), though you can certainly end up with longer journeys if you pick more convoluted routes for sight-seeing and end up having to charge, this will not be a typical journey for m…

> Difficult why? It's a tiny country.

You're not wrong. I was just wondering how people would get around.

Factors that made me wonder included:

- when you're sightseeing, it's faster to buy gas (in today's era) than to charge to full battery - the place I parked my car each night was not near a charging station and/or outlet - having infrastructure in place to drive all over makes means there's less friction to go to remote places, and if there's less demand for remote places in the future, there may be less infrastructure near those places

I'm not trying to make argue any specific point here. I was just wondering. And even though Denmark is a tiny country, many other are damn huge!

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#307

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 11:13 PM UTC

thelaith5 wrote: post #258

xxs wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it ironic that most of welfare and subsidies actually come from the oil. Stuff like 25km of under sea tunnel leading to a town with sub 2k population is quite a common sight there. While Norway is an amazing country in many aspects, the amount of oil owned by a state company puts it in a rather unique position.

This is a great article explaining how an Iraqi was largely the mind behind putting all the oil money in a state-owned fund as to avoid the damage that oil usually had done to any country that had discovered it. https://www.ft.com/content/99680a04-92a0-11de-b63b-00144feab...

[deleted]

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#308

Post by crote » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 11:14 PM UTC

tengbretson wrote: post #292

noobermin wrote: post #241

People especially here constantly rail against Europe, specifically their start-up scene, against taxes, against regulations, etc. At the same time, our cities are unlivable, inaccessible, crowded, our infrastructure is falling apart, a widening gap between the wealthy and the poor causing increases in homelessness in cities and opiod addiction in rural areas. Western Europe isn't utopia, but in many areas, their pol…

>a widening gap between the wealthy and the poor causing increases in homelessness in cities For starters, I'd be curious to see a source on whether or not the United States even has a significantly increasing number of homeless per-capita. Secondly, even if that is the case, the causal relationship between the wealth gap and homelessness would be speculative at best.

Let's see what happens when you hit rock bottom in The Netherlands, so zero wealth and zero income. I'm assuming you're about 30, single, and have no kids.

First, there is social housing available at a price between €335 and €710. True, you may have to wait a little for a house, but if it's a critical situation you will get priority. As you have no income, you will also get rent subsidies. After those, you'll pay roughly €250 / month for rent.

Second, healthcare. Health insurance is mandatory and covers practically everything, so you'll still have this. No need to worry about healthcare costs. You still have to pay for it. With a €385 / year copay, it costs you €94 / month. With a €885 copay, it'll cost you €75 / month. As you have no income, the government will subsidize your healthcare for €94 / month. Net cost: between €0 and €-20 / month. Yes, you can actually profit on healthcare.

Third, welfare. About €930 / month.

Let's look at some basic needs: heating is about €75, electricity is €28, water is €10, a 50/5 internet connection is €25, a basic 100 minutes, 100 sms, 1 GB internet mobile phone connection is about €7. There are some municipal taxes, but you don't have to pay any of them because you have no income.

This leaves you with about €535 a month for food, clothing, and all your other stuff. Note that I intentionally did not mention any car costs: you don't need it for grocery shopping, and you don't need it for a job, so any use is only incidental. If you even want to keep it, the main cost would be insurance, and that starts at €20 / month.

So let's look at the original question: is there a causal relationship between the wealth gap and homelessness? I'd say there is, because when rich people pay slightly higher taxes, literally nobody has to be homeless because the government will pay for their safety net. So how many people depend on this? Roughly 6%. This means that, on average, every working person has to pay €75 / month in taxes for a guaranteed safety net, including housing and healthcare. If you consider the amount of taxes you pay, that's not such a bad deal.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#309

Post by llukas » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 11:20 PM UTC

thinkling wrote: post #282

llukas wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you compare US cars to EU cars on average then: - EU cars are much smaller - hp of engines is much lower > "skepticism" "It seems obvious" Pick one please.

I wasn't saying anything about EU cars -- why are you bringing that up? I am skeptical of the 37mpg claim because it seems clear to me that the average car sold in the US isn't that efficient. What's the contradiction?

Sorry, I missed that part.

I think 37mpg depends on what you actually count as a car and what goes for a light truck.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#310

Post by aembleton » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 11:28 PM UTC

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #306

vidarh wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Difficult why? It's a tiny country. Skagen (Northernmost tip) to Flensburg in Germany is ~402km. Skagen to Copenhagen (East) is 410km. The longest reasonable point to point journey in Denmark is in the 550km or so range (e.g. Skagen to Lolland), though you can certainly end up with longer journeys if you pick more convoluted routes for sight-seeing and end up having to charge, this will not be a typical journey for m…

> Difficult why? It's a tiny country. You're not wrong. I was just wondering how people would get around. Factors that made me wonder included: - when you're sightseeing, it's faster to buy gas (in today's era) than to charge to full battery - the place I parked my car each night was not near a charging station and/or outlet - having infrastructure in place to drive all over makes means there's less friction to go to…

Those petrol stations are only there because of all of the petrol/diesel powered cars on the road. By saying that there will be no new petrol/diesel cars sold by 2035, you can guess that most cars will be electric by 2045.

That means that investment can take place in setting up charging infrastructure around the country. Now businesses can invest in charging networks, safe in the knowledge that the demand will come. It's not here yet but it will be there.