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A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

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Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#301

Post by sokoloff »

gideonparanoid wrote: post #258
keir-rex wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a subset of drivers in the UK who have a resentment to sharing the road with cyclists. Their primary arguments follow; “car drivers pay road tax...” or “cyclists should be forced to sit a driving/road test...” blah blah. There are certainly cyclists who do nothing to help the reputation for the rest but car drivers fail to realise how vulnerable cyclists and motorcyclists are.

There's no such thing as road tax, roads are paid for out of general taxation [0]. What they're thinking is vehicle excise duty, which doesn't apply to all vehicles, so that point is moot. [0] http://ipayroadtax.com/

I would assume drivers are also thinking of the fuel tax they pay, not solely the excise tax. The UK has some of the highest rates of fuel taxation in the world.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#302

Post by freeflight »

bialpio wrote: post #215
Dylan16807 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't drop to walking speed, it's not a rolling stop, it's flat-out running the stop sign. I think we can agree that 4mph is not high speed.

I always found it hard to understand what's so difficult in actually stopping when the sign clearly says "stop". The wording hardly leaves any room for misinterpretation, doesn't it?

I'd guess some people want to keep a bit of the momentum going for fuel efficiency? Going from standstill to moving, with a big heavy metal box, requires more energy than simply accelerating an already existing momentum, even if it's just a small momentum.

But I'm with you: Stop means stop

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#303

Post by rorykoehler »

kqr wrote: post #228
gaius wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not helped by cyclists habit of going straight on from a left turn lane.

That is one of the things that annoy me most about new bike lanes. Why do they put them on the left side of left turn lanes!?? Look, we have had lanes for traffic like a century now. It shouldn't be hard. They just have ti do what they always did! (Also the stupid unsafe cycling advice of staying to the left. Take the lane and take the correct lane, please.)

Many cars drivers have a habit of accelerating to get around cyclists as they are both coming to the junction where the car wants to turn left using the left turn only lane and the bike wants to go straight. I get cutoff at least once a month in this way. Very scary and usually the car drivers are oblivious to how dangerous their driving is.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#304

Post by pafje »

ioulian wrote: post #292
keir-rex wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a subset of drivers in the UK who have a resentment to sharing the road with cyclists. Their primary arguments follow; “car drivers pay road tax...” or “cyclists should be forced to sit a driving/road test...” blah blah. There are certainly cyclists who do nothing to help the reputation for the rest but car drivers fail to realise how vulnerable cyclists and motorcyclists are.

I live in Belgium. We have a lot of cyclists here, but I think 80% of them don't know their weak position on the road. As my father said, "They think they are terminators, that if a car crashes into them, the car will break and they will be OK". And that's what I almost always see on the road. We have a lot of cycling lanes, thank god for that, but sometimes they are not in a good state so all those people tend to sh…

Whatever the speed limit, you should never go 90 km/h in a blind turn if it is too fast to avoid a cyclist. You're the one responsible as long as cyclists are allowed on the road (and for good reason). For example, on the tiny winding mountain roads of Corsica, the speed limit is generally 90 km/h but it would be crazy for a non-local to go more than 50 or 60 km/h (if only because of the random encounters with wild boars ;))

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#305

Post by michaelt »

lmm wrote: post #278
papermule wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of people on bikes running up the inside of vehicles on narrow streets is too high. I’d walk through Bank (a junction in London) 5 times a week and I’d see time and time again people riding up the inside of tipper trucks and buses indicating to turn left. It happens all the time. I’d witness 3-4 near misses a month. Rule 73 of the Highway Code: > Pay particular attention to long vehicles which need a lot o…

Let's be careful not to conflate two things: conforming to red lights isn't a goal in itself, safety is the goal. A lot of drivers get exercised about "cyclists running red lights" in cases that are actually safer than the alternatives, e.g. cyclists crossing a junction ahead of motor traffic when the junction doesn't have a dedicated light phase for cyclists. Cyclists running up the inside mostly happens because wai…

  waiting in a queue of traffic at a light or junction
  is very dangerous for a cyclist
When I'm approaching traffic lights and there's a queue of traffic and no bike box, I stop my bike at the tail of the queue, in the middle of the lane - just like I would on my motorbike or in my car.

I'm curious as to what you think the danger is in that situation?

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#306

Post by papermule »

lagadu wrote: post #299
lmm wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because, while it does occasionally happen, the risk of a cyclist killing or seriously injuring another road user is much lower than the risk of a car driver doing so. Unlicensed cyclists are a much lower risk to other road users than licensed drivers; if anything we should be looking to impose stricter licensing requirements on drivers.

They're still a risk. Not knowing the rules can cause a motorist who did absolutely nothing wrong to kill said cyclist or swerve away from the cyclist and kill someone else not even involved, all because of a negligent cyclist. That said, demanding a license for cyclists I agree is completely unreasonable.

Could you add some more explanation here? What is unreasonable about it?

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#307

Post by usrusr »

falsedan wrote: post #294
kingosticks wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, yes I agree, some evergreen bushes would be sufficient. But it technically still leaves it possible for a driver to shoot straight over whereas the road change is fool-proof. Plus you don't actually have to close any roads to implement the junction alteration (in this case). Of course it is more expensive and time consuming to implement, I grant you that.

Shooting straight through is safe if Beaulieu is empty, so why prevent it? Even a low wall or hedge would be enough to prompt a driver to check for traffic more carefully than a superficial scan.

Because of the constant speed/constant bearing problem that makes it impossible to scan while moving and having a blind spot.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#308

Post by dsego »

alkonaut wrote: post #295
dsego wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was taught that the shape of the stop sign is octagon (and yield triangle) because you can recognize the shape from behind. The main road doesn't need to have the diamond priority sign. You know you have priority if the you see the octagon or triangular shape on adjoining roads.

Not sure I understand what you are saying here...

Imagine driving towards an intersection. There is no sign telling you if you have priority or not. There is a red car coming from the right. Then you notice that the red car has a stop sign in front of him (you recognize the shape). You infer that you are on the main road and you can ignore the right-hand rule.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#309

Post by drsim »

Svip wrote: post #133

I feel a lot of commenters are simply focusing on what signs can do or what sort of junction to build, rather than focus on the fact that on high speed primary country roads, bicycles shouldn't be sharing the road with the cars. In Denmark, a lot of high speed roads (excluding motorways, of course) out in the country have separate dual-way bicycle lanes near it but not attached to it. (Example: https://i.imgur.com/dS…

> In Denmark, a lot of high speed roads (excluding motorways, of course) out in the country have separate dual-way bicycle lanes near it but not attached to it. (Example: https://i.imgur.com/dS6jqXS.jpg)

Yes, there are many many of these in southern Jutland. However I can count on one hand how many cyclists I've seen using them. And I've spent months down there.

I cycle every day and am pro-bike, but they seem wasteful of both the countryside and money.

I would be opposed to building similar in the UK since more strips of asphalt throughout the countryside is the last thing we need.

My experiences cycling on fast country roads have been hairy at times, but we also need to recognise that there are problem spots and tackle these rather than copy/paste concepts blindly.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#310

Post by dsego »

pafje wrote: post #304
ioulian wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Belgium. We have a lot of cyclists here, but I think 80% of them don't know their weak position on the road. As my father said, "They think they are terminators, that if a car crashes into them, the car will break and they will be OK". And that's what I almost always see on the road. We have a lot of cycling lanes, thank god for that, but sometimes they are not in a good state so all those people tend to sh…

Whatever the speed limit, you should never go 90 km/h in a blind turn if it is too fast to avoid a cyclist. You're the one responsible as long as cyclists are allowed on the road (and for good reason). For example, on the tiny winding mountain roads of Corsica, the speed limit is generally 90 km/h but it would be crazy for a non-local to go more than 50 or 60 km/h (if only because of the random encounters with wild b…

People conveniently forget to adjust the speed to road conditions.
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