James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#301

Post by erik_seaberg » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:25 PM UTC

zouhair wrote: post #148

Veen wrote: post #3

From the article: > women may not be equally represented in tech because they are biologically less capable of engineering Why do news outlets persistently misrepresent what he actually said? I've read his memo and just about every news article says it contains claims that it doesn't. I have no view on whether he's right or not, but I remain shocked at the misrepresentation of his views throughout the tech media.

When the majority of people coming to your defense are right wing extremists[0][1] and neo-nazis you are doing something wrong. You can also read his twitter account, he went full on alt-right. I am happy he got his ass fired. [0]: http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2017/08/18/james-damore-like-g... [1]: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/450202/google-employees...

http://thehill.com/policy/technology/348246-poll-google-was-... reports solid opposition to his firing. If only extremists are openly defending him, it's because they have less to fear.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#302

Post by wellboy » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:25 PM UTC

x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #16

ebbv wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From his memo: > I’m not saying that all men differ from all women in the following ways or that these differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. He said exactly that, right there. Why do conservatives…

I think the "preferences" part carries more weight. More men want to be engineers than women.

Men also select more career oriented roles with higher pay, of which CS careers are one of the main ones.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#303

Post by dotnetisnotdead » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:25 PM UTC

lilycaliber wrote: post #263

lukev wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Did we read the same memo? One of his central points is that the representation gap between men and women in technology is due to different biological distributions. From the memo: > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leader…

maybe gender non confused women are simply NOT INTERESTED in the current realm of the engineering tech world? Of course I have NO expertise in this matter whatsoever as a NON DEGREED NON GENDER CONFLICTED HIGH IQ FEMALE. I wonder how many of these comments here are posted by the Googly butted employees of Googly butt INC. ON COMPANY TIME?!!! Whatever it is you THINK Google is supposed to provide youre NOT providing i…

Girl, I'm glad you're speaking out, but learn about paragraphs, and use them.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#304

Post by BonesJustice » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:25 PM UTC

lukev wrote: post #116

Veen wrote: post #3

From the article: > women may not be equally represented in tech because they are biologically less capable of engineering Why do news outlets persistently misrepresent what he actually said? I've read his memo and just about every news article says it contains claims that it doesn't. I have no view on whether he's right or not, but I remain shocked at the misrepresentation of his views throughout the tech media.

What? Did we read the same memo? One of his central points is that the representation gap between men and women in technology is due to different biological distributions. From the memo: > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leader…

> Sociological factors that some companies are attempting to counter, which is what Damore didn't like, which is why he issued his complain-y memo to start with.

That isn't my interpretation at all. His entire point was that Google's current strategy was ignoring the cultural and sociological factors that might be discouraging women from entering the field. Rather than simply giving women preferential treatment during the hiring process, and going out of the way to specifically hire women, he argued that we should be spending more time identifying why women aren't naturally drawn to the field (or why more women later choose to leave the field). Fix that problem first, or the women that get hired will eventually leave, because we haven't done enough to consider why they don't feel welcome.

He never said that women are unfit to be engineers. He argued (clumsily, I admit) that we've created an environment that favors the preferences and strengths of men over those of women. If we want to see more women thrive in tech, start by changing the culture.

I think that most of the outrage over Damore's memo can be chalked up to poor communication on his part. He lays out evidence, but he never explicitly states his argument. It's like he assumed there was a single, obvious conclusion that readers would arrive at. Some of us got the message, but apparently a whole lot more didn't. The outcome is almost perfect in its irony: he cites a greater emphasis on empathy as a way of making the engineering field more hospitable to women, but he fails miserably at using empathy to evaluate how people will interpret his own words.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#305

Post by imartin2k » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:25 PM UTC

lukev wrote: post #230

imartin2k wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" It's because he's just another brogrammer...." After having read two lengthy pieces about him and his case, I think you are showing a lack of empathy and willingness to put yourself into some other person's shoes. You might disagree with his actions and world view. But you should maybe not be so quick with your labeling. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/16/james-dam... http://quillette.com/2018/01/05…

What am I supposed to have empathy for? That he was paid a six figure salary, part of which required him to sit through a few hours of sensitivity training? And if we're worried about empathy, why don't we stop and think for a while about the people affected negatively by his memo? Or do you mean the autism excuse (which is from the Guardian journalist, btw, not Damore himself?) I know lots of people on the autism sp…

Read. If you then still think it is ok to just put a degrading label on him, then you are part of the big problem we have in our heated debates nowadays. Try be the solution and don't see the world in black or white/good or bad.

"And if we're worried about empathy, why don't we stop and think for a while about the people affected negatively by his memo?" I do. It's you who falsely assumes one can only do one thing.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#306

Post by beebmam » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:25 PM UTC

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #242

beebmam wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget that the metrics for "ability", especially in a field like software engineering, are highly unscientific. People barely have any idea about how to hire a software engineer, much less judge someone's true "ability". Preferences are also very complicated. People may prefer things very differently given the environment. That quote, along with many others, demonstrates the absolute lack of genuineness on…

> Preferences are also very complicated. People may prefer things very differently given the environment. That quote, along with many others, demonstrates the absolute lack of genuineness on the part of Damore. I'm not sure how you get from (1) his logic seems flawed, to (2) he's being disingenuous. Can you please elaborate?

1) I'm not saying his logic is flawed. I'm saying what he's basing his logic upon, that these notions of preferences and ability are scientifically measurable, are false.

2) He has an preconceived theory of how "ability" and "preference" work. The science does not point to his conclusions, because the science cannot point to any conclusions: ability is simply not scientifically understood or defined at all in the software engineering field, and preferences are barely understood and have many weird consequences (Dan Ariely's work is a great example of this). He is being disingenuous because he is making a claim without any ability to back it up, simply because it fits with his preconceived theory. That's disingenuous. If he were to say, "It seems to me that", or "What I've seen in my life is...", instead of making a strict claim. A strict claim requires actual evidence and well defined terms, both of which he has none.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#307

Post by splintercell » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

vowelless wrote: post #248

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

This is true. If the memo wasn't enough, him immediately going to right wing YouTubers like Stefan Molyneux, Jordan Peterson, Mike cernovich, Joe Rogan, Dave Rubin, Steven Crowder, etc. is suspicious. [1] Generally I wouldn't have minded if he went to right wing outlets, as long as he had also gone to left wing outlets. I was willing to listen to his reasoning. But it became clear after the memo came out that he didn…

> Generally I wouldn't have minded if he went to right wing outlets, as long as he had also gone to left wing outlets. I was willing to listen to his reasoning. But it became clear after the memo came out that he didn't engage with left wingers and maybe he was indeed just appealing to the right.

Have you watched any of his right wing outlet interviews? Literally on every interview he mentions "Nobody from left reached out to me, only the right wing outlets reached out to me". I'd definitely recommend watching his Dave Rubin interview (even though you think he is a right winger).

If you were him, you'd rather go out and present your side, than to be portrayed in whichever smear light the media wants to portray you.

There are people who lost the narrative from both left and right (like Milo) and that is definitely worse than losing the support for only one side.

Also, hypothetically it sounds great that you show up to both sides on a divided issue like this, but that isn't possible anymore in the polarized society we live in (a great example of this is you classifying Dave Rubin as 'right wing', just see how many people are calling you out on it).

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#308

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #258

hkmurakami wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If his settlement is 7 figures, he can retire off of that.

Certainly. But it doesn’t seem like he has a case to me. He’s basically trying to get a new protected class created to protect actions that clearly constituted creating a hostile work space based on long established precedent. Whatever you think of him it seems like a REALLY big hurdle. And that’s assuming no ‘mandatory binding arbitration’ issues from his work contract. Even if he wins this could take a very long ti…

> He’s basically trying to get a new protected class created

No, he's not; none of race or sex discrimination (both under federal and state law), nor political coercion (under California state law) are new protections.

> to protect actions that clearly constituted creating a hostile work space based on long established precedent.

That would be a problem in a direct action suit over his firing, but what he has actually filed is a class action alleging a pattern and policy of discrimination on three different prohibited bases. While there are challenges in doing that, they are different than the challenges in a direct action.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#309

Post by frgtpsswrdlame » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

moduspol wrote: post #173

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there really a difference if you believe the reason women "wind up" lacking the skills for X is due to biology? Asserting biology makes it essentialist, it's the same as saying "women are worse at X."

He didn't say he believed that. He said he believed it's possible it's one of several factors, and only at a macro level ("generally, women prefer not to do X", not "women are worse at X."). He also suggested that if the goal is for Google to become more inclusive toward women, that perhaps the roles should be adjusted to appeal more to women than to stick our heads in the sand and pretend the problem is Google's pat…

>("generally, women prefer not to do X", not "women are worse at X.").

You're sneaking in your "prefer" with your "generally". Damore didn't speak just to preference, he also spoke to ability.

>If you run a burger place and want more women to eat there, you start serving salads. That doesn't mean you're a sexist for thinking women can't eat burgers. Some do. But generally speaking, women eat salads at higher rates than men. You will not be as successful by trying to market the same burgers to women.

Great analogy. So in terms of burgers/salads & men/women Damore is saying that there are biological reasons to believe that women prefer salads to burgers and that there are biological reasons to believe that men are better at eating burgers.

So now let me ask you, do you think women prefer salads because of biology, or do you think that women prefer salads because of culture? You can say both but if so maybe you could say which one you think is the larger influence and by how much.

Also, do you think that men are biologically better at eating burgers? Is this the reason they are more likely to order a burger?

I think the analogy exposes exactly the problem with Damore's memo.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#310

Post by geofft » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

ddlsmurf wrote: post #250

comicjk wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He also lied about having a PhD (he was in a program, but did not finish). This makes it difficult for me to take him seriously as someone motivated by an insistent search for truth.

source please (as in when he lied) ?

He previously had "PhD, Systems Biology" on his LinkedIn profile under his Harvard section - which I get that, to other academics, probably means "I was working on a PhD between these years," but sounds very much like "I have a PhD in Systems Biology from Harvard" to anyone from the outside. (I have an incomplete master's degree personally, and I'm careful to write "BS and coursework towards MEng" on my resume and not "MEng" for exactly this reason.)

I've seen the LinkedIn with my own eyes, but if you prefer to trust media sources: https://www.wired.com/story/james-damore-google-memo-harvard... http://www.businessinsider.com/james-damore-removes-phd-stud...