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Facebook – You are the Product

lrb.co.uk

301–310 of 321 posts

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that, in fact, _does_ makes it hard to avoid using facebook without being left out. I think you might mean _fear_ of being left out...friends will find other ways to contact you.

I don't think this is true. We always have that moment at parties, "Where's Kyle? Oh shit, he deleted his facebook and didn't see the invite, did anybody text him to tell him?!" No, we didn't, because 99% of our friends use the very useful party organizing app with integrated chat and picture sharing, Facebook.

sounds like Kyle got lucky not spending time with "friends" like that

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if many don't use email much, how does it help? I barely check my personal email. And no one in my normal life knows my business email. Once in while a family member or friend will send something unimportant via email. Either I never see it. Or I see it a week or month afterward. My career relates strongly to the internet too.

If you don't respond to email and I don't communicate with you in person or on the phone I assume you are uninterested personally or professionally and take my friendship or business elsewhere. Answering email is really a pretty normal expectation.

So is facebook for friendship lol

If you ask for their email and they offer to friend you, and you decline, should they assume you don't want to be in the loop for things?

Your arguments for email as a platform equally apply to facebook. Yeah email is decentralized and oldsr, but that stuff doesn't matter to regular people who want the easiest tool for the job.

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#304
post #147
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stopped using the harmful part of Facebook, ie the newsfeed, which is designed to create an addictive behaviour, using the following technique. On every single post in my newsfeed, I tell the application I no longer want to see content from the source. It takes some weeks to dry up, but you end up with an empty page. You still get notifications related to your events, group activities, and you can still use the mes…

There are dozens of browser extensions that just hide the newsfeed. No need to go through all that labor.

None that work with Chrome Android though. :(

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#305
post #304
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are dozens of browser extensions that just hide the newsfeed. No need to go through all that labor.

None that work with Chrome Android though. :(

But Chrome Android doesn't let you use extensions, period. Not really sure why you'd want to use it :-)

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#306
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that hard, you've just forgotten how to do these things without Facebook. >I personally hate facebook's mobile apps and some it's policies ( Internet.org comes 1st to my mind), but it's hard to completely stop using it. Try it! Deactivate your account for a week. Do it again later for two weeks. Maybe for a month. When you learn how to live without it, delete it.

> It's not that hard, you've just forgotten how to do these things without Facebook. This doesn't work because the world has changed since Facebook didn't exist. Now that it does, some forms of social interaction that existed outside of FB now only exist on FB. I have friends with whom FB is the only form of communication with them, and many more friends with whom FB is easily the primary form. You can't singlehanded…

You can and should ask your friends to adapt if FB is the only form of communication they will have with you.

First off, you're doing a terrible thing to yourself by framing it as if you have only two choices: Become FB's product or become ostracised from your social circle. The latter is a deeply-ingrained biological fear, back in our tribal hunter/gather days, this basically meant death. Advertising has been abusing this biological behavioural function since the early 80's[0] but Facebook is going to extremes by actually invading and parasitising off our current social fabric, rather than just promising a "cool" lifestyle on top, like branding does.

In addition, by letting your friends do this, you are normalising the idea of "FB as only form of communication" for everybody else, too! There's so many people out there who would love to stop using FB that won't because they, like you, deeply fear being ostracised. More than you think (you won't find them on FB). If you feel that, just maybe, a single mega-corporation shouldn't be able to do this to more than 25% of all people in the whole wide world[1], then just maybe it's worth it to take a tiny bit of a stance and have a firm talk with your friends about this abuse, no?

Then there's people that I've seen (on here) crying, "you seem to have it easy, apparently your friends+family will accept this and you have time to find other means of communication but I live far away from home and have no time, and I would be so incredibly lonely if I'd stop doing FB". If you really, really feel that way, here's a big, fat yell-out-loud piece of advice: YOU ARE ALREADY LONELY. BEING A FB USER JUST OBSCURES THIS FACT. START TAKING ACTION TO FIX THIS IN A HEALTHY WAY. You're a user, and your social network consists of users (even if many of them seem to do fine). Ask any ex-addict what that's worth.

Finally, some of my friends have gone through hard times. Money, mental health, bad times. Sometimes they drop off the radar. Damage or lose their phone, disconnect from the social networks because of anxiety, shame or worries. These are the people that need their (real) social networks the most. I (and some of my friends with me) always make a point of SMS texting them about social stuff, keeping them in the loop, hangouts going on, once I realise they no longer read a certain group-chat. Even if they don't reply 4 out of 5 times, you will find they are super-grateful the fifth time. If you love them, keep an eye out for them. And even if you don't know anyone in this kind of situation, somebody you know probably does, so for their sake, start normalising the idea of keeping people in the loop whether they are on FB or not! (same goes for other networks/means of communication, but FB is extra bad because of its ubiquity and it's actively exploiting our human behaviour in a manner that is harmful to many individuals--while to groups appearing fine).

> I've often seen the argument "well if they aren't meaningful friendships, it doesn't matter" but that's just not practical. Sometimes you'll reconnect with someone who you haven't spoken with in 5 years - that's occasionally how friendships work. Friendships aren't permanent and steady in intensity: they sometimes fade in and out. Quitting FB obliterates all those transient and potential future friendships.

Except for pointing out the fact that last line is false and this fade in/out of friendships really does happen whether you're on FB or not, I'm just going to repeat: Ask any ex-addict. There's a lot of subtle nuances and facets to this fear of losing touch with certain people or potential future social contacts if you'd really really stop being a user. Be sure to ask one instead of assuming you know what they'll tell you. If you think you don't know any ex-addicts, try asking about alcohol.

> We can reduce you saying "When you learn how to live without it" to you saying "When you learn how to live without interacting with a decent chunk of people that you know".

But are you really. How can you even say you're interacting with a decent chunk of people that you know if that interaction is forcefully mediated through a singular channel of communication and you openly admit you're unable to really connect with them otherwise.

> Does it seem so easy now?

Face it, what seems hard is actually interacting with these people more, in a way that does not involve using FB together. It's that corporate-manufactured addictiveness talking. Just like the trying-to-quit alcoholic, finding it hard to expand their interaction with their friends to include things that do not involve consuming alcohol, getting pulled back in again every time.

And if you're that far in, you have my compassion. Because that is hard. It starts with facing the facts and not making excuses, it is your social responsibility.

On the bright side, working to expand your interaction with those you care about outside FB, is wholesome and fun. Chances are you might even reconnect with someone you haven't spoken in 5 years.

[0] Naomi Klein, No Logo. With the rise of "branding", advertising shifted from "this is our product" and "it's better because it has Y" towards associating the product with a lifestyle, a social group often entirely unrelated to the product (Coca-Cola being the classic example, having gone through many lifestyle-guises, none of which having to do with consuming carbonated sugary chemical sludge).

[1] 26.1% at time of posting, https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(facebook+users)/(worl...

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that, in fact, _does_ makes it hard to avoid using facebook without being left out. I think you might mean _fear_ of being left out...friends will find other ways to contact you.

Or not. Maybe they just decide it's not worth the hassle of tracking down the outliers. I guess we can argue that anybody who's a real friend will message you using your preferred comm, though that cuts both ways. If you are a real friend, you'd message them back with their preferred system.

Huh? "Preferred" doesn't cut both ways. It never does, unless it's a shared preference. Using any shared method of communication to contact each other is what real friends do.

Also a group that "just decides" outliers are not worth the hassle, are not friends. They seriously are not. Friend groups are pretty much defined as the sort of groups that do not do this. Except in cases of grave social misconduct, often destroying the "group" or "friend" aspect in the process.

They are a group, yes. And indeed, some groups will sometimes just decide to ostracise outliers if it conflicts with the group identity. Nothing inherently wrong with that, btw, this can be very useful for certain types of group. As long as it doesn't become the main type of group you identify with. Because then, as we see from all the people making excuses all over this thread, not adhering to certain rules of the group-identity becomes an existential fear of epic proportions, because it touches upon a very fundamental behavioural aspect of our biology--fear of being cast out of the tribe (which used to mean suffering followed by near-certain death).

Facebook is currently exploiting this behavioural trigger (together with an addictive cocktail of other triggers) in a quarter of the world's population.

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#308
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Email is a system which you can assume virtually 100% of users have and doesn't force users to participate in a social network that has been shown to be harmful for a lot of users. Further email doesn't force you to participate in any particular service at all because it is a federated service. Assuming that someone should get a facebook to talk to you is like assuming someone should switch to sprint to call you. Ima…

I bet most teens do not use email for anything except work stuff.

I work at a youth centre. The teens I know really have the widest range of options of contacting each other. They use FB mostly for school and family. Email is used mainly for sending documents or attachments.

If they're hard to reach it's because they chose to, not because you're using the wrong comm channel :)

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that, in fact, _does_ makes it hard to avoid using facebook without being left out. I think you might mean _fear_ of being left out...friends will find other ways to contact you.

I don't think this is true. We always have that moment at parties, "Where's Kyle? Oh shit, he deleted his facebook and didn't see the invite, did anybody text him to tell him?!" No, we didn't, because 99% of our friends use the very useful party organizing app with integrated chat and picture sharing, Facebook.

What's the actual number? Because if 99 people out of a 100 all didn't think to text Kyle, then I don't think there's even a handful of people that actually really ever wanted him to be there.

It takes a very particular size of group for that to happen. If you hang out with 4-5 people you would know if you "forgot" to invite someone. If it's much more than that, that is really a lot of people who it didn't occur to whether they wanted to see Kyle there or not.

But you should really ask Kyle, about feeling left out and the quality of his friendships.

> 99% of our friends use the very useful party organizing app with integrated chat and picture sharing, Facebook

Except that is not why you are on FB while trying to defend your behaviour towards Kyle, that's only the story an alcoholic tells to himself when he's meeting his friends at the corner pub.

If FB usage was just a "party organizing app with integrated chat and picture sharing", we would not be having this discussion.

Let alone a "very useful" one, which would obviously allow to invite people transparently and easily via multiple channels of communication. FB does the exact opposite of this[0]. Now listen to yourself defending this!! Is that really your true opinion of this "organising app" speaking, or is it your dopamine-addiction, group identity and fear of ostracism?

[0] Try using FB links sent through other comm for a bit with a logged out, cookies cleared browser. Like, a day or two.

Re: Facebook – You are the Product

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those aren't your friends buddy. >No, we didn't, because 99% of our friends use the very useful party organizing app with integrated chat and picture sharing, Facebook. My friends will actively invite me (I don't use facebook) to events if they want me there.

And here we see the mismatch between the two camps: Sure, [good|strong|old|pick your adjective] friends will contact you regardless of your facebook involvement. But there are plenty of acquaintances, groups, events and whatnot that only get organized or contacted on facebook. And even so, why would you put the extra burden on your friends to contact you in a special way? Why wouldn't you make it easy for them to con…

How is email even remotely comparable to FB use?

It's not even addictive.

This is like saying you taught your mother to enjoy mint-flavoured soda water ("a glass of water is just as good for thirst") ... as a way to defend having to drink alcohol to feel accepted by your friends.

Oh and in a lot of cases, the fear is not even real, you just believe you need FB. Your friends might just surprise you yet.

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