Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#301

Post by nnfy » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 3:57 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #224

nnfy wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is the inane assumption, which is now taken as a fact (without rigorous substantiation) that any male heavy gender ratio is a result of bias by white men (not even necessarily the majority, mind you, we simply ignore fields where women are over represented). Not to mention the conflation of equality of opportunity with equality of achievement. In our society it has become a taboo to even consider that str…

> mind you, we simply ignore fields where women are over represented). No, we don't. This point has been asked, and answered, so often (even on HN) that it probably falls under this bit of the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them. EDIT there are dozens of these: 4 years ago: https://new…

Perhaps the reason that there are "dozens" of "these" is that the question is far from settled. Perhaps this is a "classic flamewar" topic (something I'd love to see you substantiate) because of the smug dismissal of anyone who dares to question the narrative.

My point is that the narrative is one sided. While I was not specifically referring to nursing, notice how you immediately presume that men are choosing not to go into nursing because of a lack of interest, not because of some kind of discrimination-yet we cannot even suggest this possibility about women in stem fields without being accused of trying to start flamewars?

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#302

Post by kamaal » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 4:03 PM UTC

abecedarius wrote: post #277

kamaal wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. That is the not real problem here. The problem is a certain things have a very high barrier to entry. Getting into such things requires over the natural amounts of persistence and other myriad life skills for which you need a certain level of biological independence(like not having kids for example). These barrier to entries vary with each profession. They are higher for the cool jobs, like the CS ones. Most of t…

Maybe it's like that in, say, game development, but I've never seen these absurd hours in my career. A certain willingness to learn and do more than the standard curriculum is valued, yes, and there's crunch mode and harder-working startup jobs, but I haven't seen this hazing and exploitation from any of my employers.

>>I haven't seen this hazing and exploitation from any of my employers.

Most employers won't. But yet some people pour in a lot of time to make themselves better. That is precisely the whole point.

Its exactly a bit like school. Schools won't force you to put any hours. But people putting in late nighters and burning the midnight oil end up scoring high marks and getting better grades.

How do you suggest we help low scoring students? By telling the better student to study less?

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#303

Post by therpe1 » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 4:05 PM UTC

avdicius wrote: post #242

The article totally misses the point. It just picks a single area and wonders why in this particular area women and men are more equal in Russia than in the West. By asking such a narrow question you will never get the right answer. The right answer is that in Russia there is more gender equality in general and therefore in every particular area too. For instance, from a women-in-business study it follows that the pr…

Exactly. This article is naive to think there's something special about IT. All the mental gymnastics in the world can't avoid what is a pretty obvious truth: women in Eastern Europe never suffered a lost century of labor prejudice while women in the West did. Since 1917 (and even a bit before then) advanced labor and education institutions in Eastern Europe did not systematically exclude women the way these institutions did in the West. Free of systemic prejudice, women in Eastern Europe have historically been equal to men in terms of participation in the labor force and in education. The numbers on this are very clear if people are willing to look.

(What makes this all doubly ironic is that in these same areas "feminism" has, until recently, not taken off and they were somehow viewed as backwards by feminists in the West.)

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#304

Post by Arizhel » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 4:06 PM UTC

madengr wrote: post #188

sanswork wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most accountants will never make partner. You are taking two exceptions and comparing them to the whole population. You should be comparing them to people who become CTOs. Besides that most people will never even make half of your lower end salary during their whole career.

Well I suppose STEM is now a path to the middle class. Everything else is working poor. STEM used to be upper middle class. A dude driving a forklift was middle class. My advice (not that anyone asked) for STEM graduates: 1) Immediately max 401k contribution. Hopefully you'll get a employer match, but none is common these days. Should have no problem getting $1M by age 55, though more is better. 2) 15 year mortgage o…

I see a major problem in your life plan here: women (assuming you're preaching to a male audience).

Doing nothing but working in your 20s, after going to college in an all-male environment (as that's what STEM classes are), and planning to not have kids until your 30s means you're going to have a really hard time meeting any desirable women. If you don't get really lucky and somehow make time for socializing in college (between all the hours required by your CS/engineering classes) and meet a wife there that doesn't result in break-up divorce before your 30s, then you're kinda screwed. It's much harder to meet singles after college IME, and if you're "doing nothing but work in your 20s", that's going to put a real damper on your dating life during that time you're looking for a partner to have those kids in your 30s.

I think this whole plan is fraught with huge risk and problems, and shows exactly why, here in America, most people having kids seem to be "working poor" or in other fields than STEM, where they have better career longevity and stability though not as much initial salary (and maybe not as much total salary over the career even), and a lot more free time after work.

I think better advice is: you have a choice: STEM or family/kids. Pick one. You can't have both unless you're really lucky, much like professional athletes. Another alternative might be moving out of the US to Europe, where the far better social systems and working conditions make it much easier to have a family.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#305

Post by beaconstudios » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 4:07 PM UTC

intoverflow2 wrote: post #100

beaconstudios wrote: post #8

my guess: a cultural and social value placed on STEM subjects. My personal theory is that young women in the West are less likely to get into tech because they are seen as stuffy, the domain of greybeards and model train enthusiasts. Don't forget that people generally pick up their core interest in subjects at a young age where social value and coolness are some of the most important personal objectives (early teen y…

> less keen to get into tech because they are seen as stuffy, the domain of greybeards and model train enthusiasts I find this kind of justification a pretty sexist view against women that they'd pick their entire career path on such frivolous details.

if you'd read the whole paragraph, you'd see I'm talking about teenagers, and adopting interests. I think anyone familiar with how teenagers generally behave would agree that they are very concerned with social stance and "coolness". To be clear I don't think adult women make decisions in this way.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#306

Post by beaconstudios » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 4:10 PM UTC

bigtimeidiot wrote: post #255

beaconstudios wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the parent comment saying anything about either race, or inferiority. Just proclivity to want to do something. Maybe chill out a bit on the accusatory kneejerk reaction, this is meant to be a forum for civil discussion.

> Maybe chill out a bit on the accusatory kneejerk reaction, this is meant to be a forum for civil discussion. Without fail, during any discussion about tech and gender on these boards, "nice guys" come out of the woodwork as staunch advocates of equality in the workplace, their message couched in accusatory and bullying language. I'll bet they're closer to being part of the problem with the industry, rather than the…

I know the type you mean, and I agree. However, that's not what the previous commenter was doing. I don't think it's sexist to suggest that on average, men and women may have different interests - whatever you think it's caused by, it's observable from reality. If they had said that women aren't as capable as men at programming I'd be right there with you, but kneejerk accusations of sexism do nothing but stifle debate and make people feel attacked. At least determine whether what the person said was indeed sexist before launching into attacking them.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#307

Post by BrandonMarc » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 4:12 PM UTC

wobbleblob wrote: post #288

BrandonMarc wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Medicine and law require far more schooling / apprenticeship before the rewards start to overcome the difficulties (such as debt), often far more than even 5-6 years. All 3 can easily require being on-call at inconvenient times, and definitely require well above 40 hours a week.

Yeah, but are you looking at this from the Silicon Valley point of view, where a computer programmer can expect a 6 figure income straight out of college? Because that's far from the norm in the parts of 'the West' where I live.

Is that true, though? Does Silicon Valley really pay 6 figures for entry-level? I guess with cost of living they probably have little choice.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#308

Post by antisthenes » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 4:12 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #4

I've seen it argued that, paradoxically, the richer and more egalitarian a society is, the more the differences are magnified in the kinds choices individuals of both genders make. So Russia being a poorer nation with less paths to success would lead more women to make career choices based around economics, while in Sweden, a richer welfare state, economic factors may be a lower driver.

> I've seen it argued that, paradoxically, the richer and more egalitarian a society is, the more the differences are magnified in the kinds choices individuals of both genders make.

There's absolutely nothing paradoxical about this. The more wealthy a society is, the less incentive there is for women to work instead of being the primary full-time caretaker. Women are happier in single-earner households where they don't have to work or can work part-time at their leisure. This usually means they chose the right partner, e.g. a high status male that lets them survive on 1 income (presumably high).

Beware the cognitive dissonance that liberals are so intent on perpetuating that empowering women has anything to do with the workplace. It doesn't.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#309

Post by Arizhel » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 4:13 PM UTC

to_bpr wrote: post #189

I'd be really interested to see some thorough research into the possible factors behind this. I've personally zero experience with Russian culture beyond what makes it to the media. From a Western perspective, we've a society that promotes and idolizes women based on their looks and sex appeal. Young girls look up to and subscribe to the snapchats of people like the Kardashians and other transient entities with a ver…

>From a Western perspective, we've a society that promotes and idolizes women based on their looks and sex appeal.

Maybe, but it's interesting that at least in America (which is relevant since you specifically cite the Kardashians), women don't actually put much effort into looking good. Obesity in America is among the highest in the world (Mexico is a little higher). On average, you'll have a much easier time meeting attractive women in Russia, east Asia, or anywhere in Europe (except probably the UK). People just aren't as fat in other countries.

So while American society might "idolize" women based on looks/sex appeal, I don't see that actually translating to regular women trying to look good, or succeeding at it at any rate. People here like to look at pretty people on TV and in the movies, sure, but that doesn't translate to them trying to make themselves look good. They'd rather drive everywhere in their big SUV and drink sodas and eat junk food.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#310

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 4:14 PM UTC

RodericDay wrote: post #102

milquetoastaf wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This, incidentally, blows out of the water the argument made by some feminists that women don't do STEM because of conditioning in nasty patriarchal societies. Yep, that one anecdotal line from an article totally destroys the idea of any sort of patriarchy or sexism happening in the US. Sheesh, this is the top comment? Give me a break.

The fact that this is the top comment is very related to the actual issue. I came from mech eng, and the cluelessness and defensiveness techies display when their field's hostility towards women is discussed is incredibly messed up.

> I came from mech eng, and the cluelessness and defensiveness techies display when their field's hostility towards women is discussed is incredibly messed up.

If you were an innocent bystander and being tarred with an overly broad brush by people with an agenda, I would imagine that you'd be annoyed and defensive too. What's actually messed up is that attempting to argue your own innocence is furthermore taken as conclusive proof that you are guilty, as alluded to in the above quote and elsewhere in this topic.

Frankly, I fall under an underrepresented category that these identity politics advocates are purportedly trying to help (more than one actually) and even _I_ don't wish to be in any way associated or represented by them because they're just that absurd and alienating to ordinary people.