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Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

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Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#301

Post by qb45 »

randomdata wrote: post #297
weberc2 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some farmers want to change engine curve profiles to get more power out of their engines, likely at the expense of Tier IV emissions regulations and possibly damaging the drivetrain. I don't believe this is the normal case, but I have heard this expressed in the past.

This does seems to be John Deere's primary motivation. They make the exact same mechanical machine to serve many different market segments, and then assign each model's capabilities, like horsepower, in software. Of course, the consumer soon figures out that by flipping a couple of bits they can buy the less expensive machine and upgrade it at little to no cost. Thus ensues the debate of who owns the tractor.

> They make the exact same mechanical machine to serve many different market segments

Do you know that they do? Parent only talked about running the machine out of spec altogether but your theory could explain a few things if it's true.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#302

Post by randomdata »

tw04 wrote: post #145
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

What, specifically, is a threat to kill people in the software? I'm sorry but that just reads like a John Deere shill here to defend the cause. We got by for literally two hundred years without magical software in tractors, and we were just fine.

It's not obvious how an errant piece of large, heavy, machinery could kill someone?

There's a software bug in one of my tractors (not John Deere) where it won't always immediately disengage the clutch when put in gear (yes, even the transmission is fully computerized). One time during a long day in the field I accidentally left it in gear, not noticing because the tractor was at a full stop with no signs of moving. A few minutes after I got out of the cab it decided to kick in. Luckily it was in a low gear and I was able to safely get it stopped, but it's easy to see how that could have ended up tragic. While that one was ultimately my error, without that bug it wouldn't have been an issue in the first place.

I'm sure you can come up with arguments as to why that software shouldn't exist – although I have to say it's wonderful when it works – but it's easy to see why bugs can be dangerous.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#303

Post by cookiecaper »

averagewall wrote: post #110
cookiecaper wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, reining copyright terms in, putting in strong protections for individuals and hobbyists so that copyright is irrelevant to anyone with less than $1M in revenue, and liberalizing fair use (which unfortunately probably also means seriously overhauling our judicial processes to be not horrendously slow and expensive) would make copyright far more tolerable. IMO the ideal would be something like 10 year copyright te…

Less than $1M? Then my personal business would evaporate because everyone would copy it for free. I provide value to people and they pay me and it supports my family. You're saying I should stop doing that work and become, I don't know, a bricklayer instead? I won't be able to do open source work because that doesn't generate money.

I wasn't clear. I meant that copyright violations generally would be something that people with less than 1 million in revenue didn't have to worry about, not that it's protections would be irrelevant to them.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#304

Post by froindt »

thearn4 wrote: post #245
froindt wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Around me, I see a lot of Kubota, New Holland, etc. Not too many John Deeres actually. Around Iowa I see these brands as well, but I don't see Kubota and New Holland as being as massive and innovative as Deere and Cat are/can be. John Deere has been notorious in the legal system in its pursuit of these locks on software. They have very good autonomy software which gets better every season, and distinguishes them fr…

I'm in N.E. Ohio, just outside the Cleveland metro area. The croplands here aren't at large as what you'd see in central OH, but plot sizes of around a hundred acres aren't too hard to spot. That's a good point that autonomy could be a big deal for some consumers, and I bet larger plot size is a factor in that.

It's definitely easier with a large plot of land. Iowa is largely setup on a 1 mile by 1 mile grid of roads, making plots of 640 acres. I don't know if the grid of gravel roads is common or not.

I've heard of John Deere being able to stay within about an inch of the previously traveled path on subsequent passes through the field. "Guaranteeing" you won't drive over previously planted crops and being able to customize the spraying, doing most driving autonomously,and collect yield per acre in real-time during harvesting, etc. make it a compelling solution out here.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#306

Post by uranian »

Sytten wrote: post #85

My dad is a farmer and I can assure you that this is a real problem. Every piece of equipment now as its own proprietary, closed-source and, most of the time, incompatible software. Plus, many of them don't get any update after the product launch. When you are in rush to plant or harvest you just can`t afford to wait for an authorized dealer. And if they fail, good luck trying to find a replacement that is not 100x o…

I expect that this software lock is stated in their terms of service. If you don't like or cannot agree with the terms you simply should not buy from them. Unfortunately companies salesman usually don't mention the less nice parts of the deal written in the terms, and that is of course on the edge of swindle.

I think in general companies go more and more aggressive and ruthless to remain profitable and fight opposition, that's our economy..

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#307

Post by rebeccaskinner »

jessriedel wrote: post #275
rebeccaskinner wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I co-founded a company in this space a few years ago. We ultimately pivoted out of the space because for all of the user buy-in that we got, the legal encumbrances were way too high to be able to successfully operate without raising a lot of money just to pay lawyers. If we'd decided to go the VC route instead of bootstrapping we might have been able to make a go of it, but raising VC money for a startup in the midwe…

> the legal encumbrances were way too high to be able to successfully operate without raising a lot of money just to pay lawyers. Were these standard encumbrances that hardware and software makers put to try and lockdown their products, or was there something special about farming?

It was, for the most part, regular DRM and proprietary data/hardware format stuff that is common across industries.

The very high cost of the equipment if it were bricked for license violation, and the very narrow windows for being able to use the equipment (if you need to call John Deere and have them re-enable your tractor you've just potentially lost out on an entire seasons revenue) were also big factors. Many of the farmers that we talked to were fed up enough that they would have risked it, but between our own direct legal risks, and the risk to our reputation if our customers equipment started getting bricked, was enough to stop us from moving forward.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#308

Post by Ensorceled »

uranian wrote: post #306
Sytten wrote: post #85

My dad is a farmer and I can assure you that this is a real problem. Every piece of equipment now as its own proprietary, closed-source and, most of the time, incompatible software. Plus, many of them don't get any update after the product launch. When you are in rush to plant or harvest you just can`t afford to wait for an authorized dealer. And if they fail, good luck trying to find a replacement that is not 100x o…

I expect that this software lock is stated in their terms of service. If you don't like or cannot agree with the terms you simply should not buy from them. Unfortunately companies salesman usually don't mention the less nice parts of the deal written in the terms, and that is of course on the edge of swindle. I think in general companies go more and more aggressive and ruthless to remain profitable and fight oppositi…

Also, the options to just "not buy from them" are rapidly decreasing.

Sythes and oxen-drawn plows don't have any terms of service but they are not competitive these days.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#309

Post by nottorp »

weberc2 wrote: post #291
nottorp wrote: post #193

I don't get why all this chat is about software, licensing and software safety. The way I read it, a farmer can't change even, say, a brake pad (or whatever tractors use) without authorization from John Deere. I very strongly doubt that they want to mess with the software, they just want to perform minor maintenance themselves.

Some farmers want to change engine curve profiles to get more power out of their engines, likely at the expense of Tier IV emissions regulations and possibly damaging the drivetrain. I don't believe this is the normal case, but I have heard this expressed in the past.

You're quoting the dealer now. Not exactly the most reliable source.

There was another article about this a few days ago (it's linked somewhere in one of the comments) and the basic description was "can't do any repairs in place" not "i want to overclock my engine".

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#310

Post by soundwave106 »

bitwize wrote: post #57
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Companies like Microsoft would vanish" Heaven forbid! :-D I go around telling people what I think of copyright all the time, and this argument is one that I hear a lot. But I don't buy it. The body of open source content available today is proof that your argument is at the very least incomplete. Plenty of people do give their time away for free to make better things available to people without monetary benefit. A k…

Try making friends with a musician. Make sure they're a local act or play in a local band. Often they have mouths to feed and mortgages to pay, and would love to do so with their art but can't because the economics don't support it. Almost invariably, they talk about how it used to be better, back when people bought physical phonograph albums; among the musicians I know the politics are uniform: strong copyright help…

From my perspective (having played in local acts), the decline of the local musician career more points to a larger combination of converging trends:

- Increasing technology (eg: there is much less need for certain careers. An example is the local mid-grade demo studio; these have largely closed with computers able to easily exceed the old demo studio's quality)

- Corporate homogenization. In the 1990s, radio stations merged and became more national. This resulted in stations paying less attention to local markets. The same can be said for record labels. The same can be said for local music venues, which in some places are also in decline. (https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/sep/09/the-slow-deat...) Ergo: there is less room for "regional hits" and regional music scenes.

- A huge increase in entertainment choice, lowering overall demand.

- Various entertainment trends that hurt certain types of musicians more than others (eg: In pop, today there is much less of a focus on band-oriented music, replaced with DJ/electronic type music)

None of this had much to do with IP. In fact, streaming / Napster / etc. may actually help some local musicians a touch (particularly in more niche genres), by allowing musicians to gain exposure in a way that is outside the standard corporate music environment (replacing the old tape trading circles of before).

Of course, exposure alone doesn't pay the bills. And there's certainly a case that streaming / Napster / etc. hurt the income of established musicians that relied heavily on album sales for their paychecks. But to me, it's strange when local musicians focus on only that (and yes I have heard the same from some). That route of income didn't really apply even in pre-Internet times, until you got "signed". (And if you weren't biz savvy, you could easily get screwed by that route too, see Albini's famous rant -- http://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-problem-with-music )

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