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Aetna CEO Threatened Obamacare Pullout If Feds Opposed Humana Merger

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Re: Aetna CEO Threatened Obamacare Pullout If Feds Opposed Humana Merger

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well ... you're strictly right, but just like the idiotic provision that forced Congress to give up their employer sponsored insurance and use the exchange instead was forced by the GOP, so to were these provisions dropped due to GOP pressure. You see, the GOP continually promised, on one hand, to tie the ACA up in legislative hurdles so it couldn't pass, or, on the other hand, vote for it if it met their requirement…

Um, no. Those provisions were the Democrats negotiating with themselves. At the time the Democrats had the votes to force the issue regardless of the Republican opposition. It was people like Ben Nelson, Joe Lieberman, and Max Baucus that played a rotating merry-go-round of scapegoats that the Democratic Party used to trump up reasons why they couldn't support more progressive reforms in the healthcare legislation. A…

I agree with your assessment of the legislation.

It's true that Sen. Lieberman, in coordination with Sen. Snowe, threatened a filibuster. At the time, Sen. Lieberman was an independent, not a Democrat. So, it was an independent and a Republican.

I know that's splitting hairs, but these are valid hairs to split.

Re: Aetna CEO Threatened Obamacare Pullout If Feds Opposed Humana Merger

#302
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only 5-10% pay the majority of taxes, but almost everyone is, eventually, not healthy. Another way to put it is that average lifetime healthcare cost is about $250k for men, $350k for women. So yes, definitely people should be paying for health insurance while they are healthy, so that they can also have it when they are sick. In a sense, health insurance should be priced just like a $250k/$350k term-life policy that…

> Another way to put it is that average lifetime healthcare cost is about $250k for men, $350k for women. Do you have a source for these numbers?

The Lifetime Distribution of Health Care Costs http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361028/

Re: Aetna CEO Threatened Obamacare Pullout If Feds Opposed Humana Merger

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anesthesiologist alone will be $5k. They are the person most able to kill you when they screw up, so a significant portion of that bill is insurance. They also make $300-500k. Also recovery room or ICU time is very expensive -- something like $1000/hr in some cases. That type of procedure (gall bladder) will cost something like $15-20k. When I had a spinal fusion, it was a 4-5 hour procedure involving a neurosurg…

Aren't healthcare list prices in the US really really distorted and nonsensical, due to decades of messed up incentives between hospitals and insurers?

Cannot speak for the cause, but the prices are distorted. I was taken to ER a couple of months ago and x-ray of chest cost $3500 and CT of chest $5500. The equivalent prices at the private sector of my home country would have been $70 and $120 and I could have gotten those done just as quickly as in ER in US.

Re: Aetna CEO Threatened Obamacare Pullout If Feds Opposed Humana Merger

#304
post #169
post #161

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Reality, of course, being that the US has death panels: Insurance providers, so the argument was idiotic to begin with. The difference is that with most socialised systems there are two system in parallel: A public system whose priorities set based on measured impact, rather than by . E.g. in the UK, a separate agency develops guidance independently that measures how treatments affect "quality adjusted life years". A…

Except you can sue your insurance provider if they deny you coverage for something that they're obligated to cover. You wouldn't be able to sue the government. Edit: Let me also add this; when you sign up for health insurance you're entering into a contract with the insurer. They have to be up front about what they're providing and it's your obligation to understand what you're buying. With the government you don't g…

You've got that almost completely backwards, though few people are aware of this (in the United States).

I'm hazy on the details myself, but briefly:

1. Healthcare insurers are covered under ERISA, the Employee Retirement Income Security Act, of 1974. Among the provisions of that act are limitations on the right to sue, under the theory that a retirement fiduciary is an agent of the employees. It's been a long time since I've looked at this, and I don't recall all the specifics, but yes, there are some limitations on suit for lack of coverage.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Retirement_Income_S...

2. Lawsuits against the government are possible and happen all the time. I'd have to see what specific limitations apply, if any, to Medicare, Medicaid, Disability, and VA care, but you'll find numerous instances of suits:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lawsuit+medicare+denial+of+(care%7...

Update, additional info on ERISA and its impact on lawsuits: appeals through the insurer must first be exhausted, but statute of limitations applies whilst lawsuits are blocked: https://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/articles/stock_option/...

Re: Aetna CEO Threatened Obamacare Pullout If Feds Opposed Humana Merger

#305
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think penalties need to be sharply increased, but the problem isn't so much free riders as it is that statistically the most attractive segment of the market is overwhelmingly likely to be employed at a firm that offers group coverage.

I certainly agree that employer provided health care coverage should be taxable income (I assume that's the mechanism by which you would shift people). It's interesting to note that McCain proposed this as part of his campaign in 2004 and Obama pilloried him for it.

Yep. Clinton wanted to tax employer-provided health care too. McCain and Clinton were right about that --- but Baucus, and I guess by extension Obama, was right about the individual mandate.

Re: Aetna CEO Threatened Obamacare Pullout If Feds Opposed Humana Merger

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefit vs how they happened are very different things. Initially, the benefit was that people paid all medical expenses out of pocket and could purchase insurance in case of extreme medical issues. Businesses started offering health insurance as a perk to attract employees and would negotiate a group rate. This benefits the business by both helping to attract / retain employees as well as helping to keep those e…

We used to have much less medical care available; the best treatment for most diseases was "do nothing". That is no longer the case. We buy car insurance and fire insurance expecting to never or rarely make a claim. We buy health insurance knowing we definitely will be making claims. Supply and demand only works when you can establish a price equilibrium which absolutely requires that some people are priced out of th…

And yet, the most dramtic improvements in healthcare outcomes (life expectency, mortality), came in the period before intensive medicine. Robert Gordon's The Rise and Fall of American Growth (2016) describes this in detail. Progress since 1970 has been particularly abysmal and almost totally due to increased access for the most under-served populations.

It turns out that there are very sharply diminishing returns to intensive medical care. And that getting the basics right -- pre-natal care, effective childbirth, well-mother-and-baby care, vaccinations, good nutrition, an environment clear of pollution and contamination (especially lead, mercury, asbestos, smoke, and miscellaneous hazards) has a tremendous effect on improving infant survival and adult capabilities in both physical and mental health.

The same precise services which lack of healthcare limit.

There are also specific interventions which can be hugely impressively. One doctor I know entered the profession after witnessing what a single dose of narcan could do to an ODing heroin junkie. (Mind, you've still got an addict to deal with after ripping them out of Death's Cold Hands, but you've got a live addict, not a dead one.) Wound care, reconstructive surgery, bonesetting, and treatments for at least some diseases and conditions are pretty amazing.

But people still eventually die, and putting of the inevitable is extremely expensive. The share of Medicare (and total) healthcare expenditures invoked in the last 12 months of life are quite high, though I've not the specific figures.

And the US healthcare industry, in cost for outcomes achieved, is horrendously inefficient. It remains unavailable for far, far too many people.

Re: Aetna CEO Threatened Obamacare Pullout If Feds Opposed Humana Merger

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends where you live. I know many Canadians who've had different experiences. This points to a major problem with socialized products - how they perform depend not on merit or ability to pay, but where you live, how good your representative is, etc. That is much worse.

I really don't agree. I've lived in three Canadian provinces, and four U.S. states, from towns of 1000 people, small cities of 10k, medium cities of 100k, to large cities of 1m+. Having lived through the Ontario cuts in health care in the 90s ("the Harris common sense revolution"), I don't really think political reps Federally or Provincially had any say on quality of care or what hospitals we got, it was all redesig…

What's the worst condition (if you don't mind saying) you've had where you had to use the Canadian system? Generally, socialized medicine works fine for routine care but badly for catastrophic (i.e. expensive) care.

Re: Aetna CEO Threatened Obamacare Pullout If Feds Opposed Humana Merger

#308
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By shifting more of the group insurance market onto the individual market, perhaps mostly by eliminating current incentives for employer group coverage, to minimize the adverse selection problem. Incidentally: two members of my immediate family have the same problem he does. No history of serious illness, no current health problems, probably healthier than the median in both cases for their age cohort, but uninsurabl…

1) Can we make the individual mandate in the individual market strong enough to really eliminate (or at least minimize) the adverse selection problem? I am unconvinced that we can. Perhaps though. 2) Are you really convinced that the pre-existing rules you encountered were bogus? Are insurance companies just dumb when it comes to this sort of thing? I tend to assume, absent other evidence, that insurance companies wi…

1.) It might be possible, but that would probably take time, a lot of work, and likely intervention with laws and money. I'm not all that hopeful that it could be done. Right now there are a lot of people with inadequate to no health coverage. They have issues and problems that are going to need taken care of, which means that the first 3-5 years are probably going to be more expensive than later on. Some are just things folks have been putting off - surgery for carpal tunnel, for example. A few folks will have much larger problems that they can't do much about without insurance. Maybe they don't take care of their diabetes well enough or should really be taking heart medicine or anti-depressants.

Basically, gotta get everyone caught up to the healthiest they can be, and afterwards there would be a lot better maintenance, which in return would mean that the companies have a chance of not needing to worry about the adverse selection.

It would probably also help to get rid of the networks and simplify the insurance end at the doctors offices to both reduce costs and get rid of some of the redunancies in addition to having some sort of care and coverage standards that spread across insurances, just so that people are able to get the care they need instead of going with not-quite-so-good-for-them alternatives because they happen to have a crappy prescription plan.

Other changes I would make would be to require all insurers to sell directly to consumers and decouple insurance from employment - much like most folks get their car insurance. In addition, I'd require insurers to use the exchanges if they want to be in the business and make it so that insurers have a national license instead of needing certified in each and every state they sell in. This would not only standardize coverage, but reduce overhead.

Unfortunately, this sort of thing requires planning on a rather large scale and fixing a lot of problems such as affordability of care. The current political climate hasn't been so keen on that sort of long-term planning nor cooporation, not to mention that the companies themselves might not be too keen on that last one either.

2.) I tend to think all pre-existing rules are bogus. Though they say they help with their risk, I'm skeptical. Most the plans I saw wanted folks to have continuous health care coverage to go around some of the rules (I've always gotten insurance through and employer when I lived in the US). Yet having coverage doesn't mean you take care of your condition. The opposite is also true. Obviously, some folks don't take care of x,y, or z because of lack of coverage as well. And things such as gall bladder surgery are more one-time events with few lasting needs after the surgery for most folks.

Re: Aetna CEO Threatened Obamacare Pullout If Feds Opposed Humana Merger

#309
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"American governments are not capable of running efficient programs" - that's simply false, and your statement about government employees is insulting.

Insulting to whom? While it's a generalization, it's pretty much accurate in the entirety of my personal and professional experience. Some good competent folks work for the government, but they are drowned out to the point of absurdity by the masses of folks doing enough to not get fired. Which generally means showing up on time and not doing something the other bored employees in the office can complain to your mana…

It was insulting to every person that works in the government, and especially to those people you mention that are "good competent folks".

If your only experience with government employees is asking them to provide service to you, then all you can comment on is how effective they were at doing that job. You cannot know what their general competence level is, nor can you know how they'd do outside of government employ, because you don't know what their job actually entails. I'll give you a hint, though - it's a lot more then helping you.

Even if you've worked for a government agency, which sounds unlikely based on your most recent post, you've only seen a tiny sliver of government employees. You can talk about the competence of that tiny sliver if you care to, but not all government employees.

Look, I get it, it's easy to complain about government workers. It's like complaining that all used car salesmen and mechanics are crooks. Using it in an attempt to prove a point though, is foolish, and that's exactly what you did.

Re: Aetna CEO Threatened Obamacare Pullout If Feds Opposed Humana Merger

#310
post #2

Can anyone succinctly explain the benefits of having a market for private health insurance companies, rather than a single provider of health insurance (government, aka "public option")? Can a capitalist case be made for their existence? Does the lack of a large private insurance market in countries with government-provided health insurance cause lots of inefficiencies and waste?

Anecdotally, while Britain's medical system has less wait times, doctors working for the NHS are chronically overworked and underpaid. Many move to Australia or go into private practice after completing their residencies.
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