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Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

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Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with Java/Python? I don't know about Java, but Python is certainly a nice language to write in in my opinion. (However don't expect raw performance from Python.)

It's not that they are bad languages, it's that they are the ones that everyone knows, so I don't believe that there are open positions on those languages that nobody wants, unless the money is obscenely low (which it often is).

> they are the ones that everyone knows,

Man, how things change. I remember times when most developers would derisively laugh off Python's indentation.

Back in 2006, Python jobs were so few and far between, you'd struggle to get paid to work with it. 10 years later, "everybody" works with it, so apparently you struggle to get paid a decent amount.

Why can't I ever find a niche I like and paying well? :(

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#302
post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

> around 36000 euros I know a lot of employees or freelancers making a lot more working for companies in Malaga or companies elsewhere; more said it but get projects abroad; worked well for us. A problem here is that you need USPs because in Portugal people are working for a lot less than in Spain, all speak English and very willing to take whatever work. Also less rules; easy to fire people in the first few years. >…

> I know a lot of employees or freelancers making a lot more working for companies in Malaga or companies elsewhere;

I talked about the rule - undoubtedly there are exceptions. I once interviewed for a senior position for a prominent Malaga company, and they offered me less than my first job ever here in Barcelona.

> Most programmers would find it more of a problem to learn new stuff all the time.

One could argue that London/SF programmers do exactly that - and are compensated accordingly!

We are in the technology business - by definition those who don't keep up are left behind. Maybe not drastically, but gradually and without you noticing.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#303
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> around 36000 euros I know a lot of employees or freelancers making a lot more working for companies in Malaga or companies elsewhere; more said it but get projects abroad; worked well for us. A problem here is that you need USPs because in Portugal people are working for a lot less than in Spain, all speak English and very willing to take whatever work. Also less rules; easy to fire people in the first few years. >…

> I know a lot of employees or freelancers making a lot more working for companies in Malaga or companies elsewhere; I talked about the rule - undoubtedly there are exceptions. I once interviewed for a senior position for a prominent Malaga company, and they offered me less than my first job ever here in Barcelona. > Most programmers would find it more of a problem to learn new stuff all the time. One could argue tha…

> We are in the technology business - by definition those who don't keep up are left behind. Maybe not drastically, but gradually and without you noticing.

I agree, i'm saying many programmers would not think that a problem as long as the market demands those 'older' technologies. If you read HN or /r/programming you might think you are missing out all the time; if you make E200k+ at BBVA as senior dev you really wouldn't notice any of that. You would be using stuff that hasn't changed massively for over a decade. I would wager that a lot (most) programmers would prefer the latter to the former. Not me, not you, but many would.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#304
post #266
post #243

> Pimentel’s client asked him for list of candidates trained in “Agile” project management techniques for helping companies boost their productivity by using more I.T. systems. The client was offering as much as 200,000 euros ($220,000) a year -- almost 10 times the average salary in Spain. > But such people are thin on the ground in Spain. It takes at least eight months for an experienced software developer to earn…

Yeah, I'd stay far away from anyone who thinks you need 8 months to grasp the concepts of Agile. Sounds like @horse_recruiter is running the talent search. That ridiculous expectation is probably a symptom of some pretty dysfunctional management in general.

For a developer, no.

For someone involved in non-technical delivery, I would expect they had experience delivering agile projects.

(Of course, agile projects typically call them product owners instead, a subtle distinction.)

I've been involved with agile projects since 2006 and I am still learning new ways of delivering software that solves the right problem, developing team cohesion, surfacing risk early, and other things you don't learn in the 3 day class.

I can teach Scrum in 30 minutes, but there should be an actual expert around until enough of the group has internalized the reasons for the concepts and feel like they can adjust it to suit their situation without fear of dogma. (This expert, however, won't usually cost $200,000 unless they signed the manifesto themselves or are otherwise agile-famous.)

(Here's the 30 seconds if you don't have anyone around. Start with trying to group the next most important thing to do in a 2 week chunk. Every day, talk with each other and make sure to surface any problems and risks as fast as possible. Have at least one person who will use the software sitting with the team to answer questions as they pop up. And every week, take an hour to figure out what's working well, what isn't, and what you need to adjust to make things work more smoothly. There are dozens of technical and organizational practices to go through and try, but the best is to keep the ones that work for you, ditch the ones that don't.

Standups and Demos are just 2 of those organizational processes. Use them if they work, ditch them if they don't. For example, I'm currently working with expert practitioners and we're not doing a standup because we're small enough, work close enough together, and have worked with each other long enough to just talk.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#305
post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

Developers are not fungible. But in my opinion: this "10x" term really has to go away. We need a better way to describe the reality that there's a range in quality and capability for developers that doesn't suggest an order of magnitude. That just means corner cutting.

10x is not a totally precise term, but it does the job. Specifically it suggests that you can be one level of abstraction above his peers.

People may get a little too easily offended (or excited) by "10x".

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#306
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that they are bad languages, it's that they are the ones that everyone knows, so I don't believe that there are open positions on those languages that nobody wants, unless the money is obscenely low (which it often is).

> they are the ones that everyone knows, Man, how things change. I remember times when most developers would derisively laugh off Python's indentation. Back in 2006, Python jobs were so few and far between, you'd struggle to get paid to work with it. 10 years later, "everybody" works with it, so apparently you struggle to get paid a decent amount. Why can't I ever find a niche I like and paying well? :(

Do you like functional programming? That's a sector that's poppin.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#307
post #243

> Pimentel’s client asked him for list of candidates trained in “Agile” project management techniques for helping companies boost their productivity by using more I.T. systems. The client was offering as much as 200,000 euros ($220,000) a year -- almost 10 times the average salary in Spain. > But such people are thin on the ground in Spain. It takes at least eight months for an experienced software developer to earn…

> Spanish executives are less-skilled than their competitors in Germany, France or Italy

This is hilarious. Say that to Amancio Ortega :-)

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#308
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are few, although not many counter-examples. We run Mobile Jazz [1], which is an international boutique agency with headquarters in Barcelona. We're trying to treat our employees extremely fairly and have managed to gain some of the best talent not only in Spain, but also internationally. Here some of the things we do: - Pay fair salaries: 54k€ / year (before tax) for those that work full-time - We distribute t…

54k is still less than what I make working remotely for American companies...

But you actually get cool place to work, meet people and maybe even make friends.

Might not be for everyone, but sometimes money is not everything. Personal interaction can be strong motivator.

We are in the same building as MobileJazz and both of our offices have a big terrace and BBQ which we put to fair use!

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#309
post #243

> Pimentel’s client asked him for list of candidates trained in “Agile” project management techniques for helping companies boost their productivity by using more I.T. systems. The client was offering as much as 200,000 euros ($220,000) a year -- almost 10 times the average salary in Spain. > But such people are thin on the ground in Spain. It takes at least eight months for an experienced software developer to earn…

I agree with the parts that say "bullshit".

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#310
> From software developers and mathematical modelers to geriatric nurses and care workers, a mismatch in qualifications means companies are struggling to fill posts, even though the unemployment rate at 20.4 percent is the second-highest in Europe.

This is the result of years of malinvestiment in human capital. The Austrian Theory of Business Cycles explain.

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