Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry • Hacker News Board

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#301

Post by sheepdestroyer » Tue, May 03, 2016, 4:53 PM UTC

kitsune_ wrote: post #255

protomyth wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not been privileged all my life. I have a dislike for fish because of some of things and situations we were in. It is never, ever ok to steal. Stealing from a supermarket is stealing from a person or people. Just because you cannot name who is affected doesn't mean it isn't people. It is black and white. The morality and legality are in alignment in this regard. This whole "shades of grey" leads to the blackness…

Nothing man made is ever black and white. There is no universal physical law of morality. We can describe two different acts with the same word: > A guy stole a sandwich from a super market because he was starving > A guy stole a Ferrari because he always wanted to drive a Ferrari These two things are not the same. The temporality of property rights is especially interesting. I hope you do realise that at some point…

"La propriété, c'est le vol!" - Proudhon

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#302

Post by jeffdavis » Tue, May 03, 2016, 4:54 PM UTC

steego wrote: post #214

stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

> I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. * Stealing something back * Stealing Hitler's secret plans * Stealing a portion of everybody's property/income, but providing vital protection, infrastructure and social services in return. * Stealing the heart of a girl from a guy who abuses her. * Stealing land from the commons to efficiently put it to work * Stealing land at market valu…

I respectfully disagree. Property rights have a moral component independent of their economic value, similar to privacy rights.

Say someone says "let me search your car, what have you got to hide?" What argument can you use against it? The problem is that we've been manipulated to believe privacy has no real moral claim. In reality, you should be able to just say "it's private" and not feel compelled to provide further explanation.

It's not so different from being punched in the stomach. You aren't going to die, so what's the problem? You heal and everything is fine. So why won't you let me punch you in the stomach?

Theft is, similarly, a moral issue. If I make something, and someone takes it, I will feel bad. Much worse than if I had to sell it to pay taxes (even if I disagree with the tax policy).

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#303

Post by thaumasiotes » Tue, May 03, 2016, 4:54 PM UTC

Intermernet wrote: post #188

kbart wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you've described is more akin to gathering discarded food in the back of supermarkets and restaurants, not taking it (stealing) from the rightful owner.

The original article is about about someone stealing food from a supermarket. Yes, the supermarket is the rightful owner, but they aren't going to actually consume the food.

You're not going to consume your bed, either.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#304

Post by protomyth » Tue, May 03, 2016, 4:54 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #295

protomyth wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you ever starved? (And going hungry is not starvation). I've gone hungry and I know my Dad did. There was choices made by this person before they hit starve. They were hungry first. Why is visiting a church or other organization unacceptable to you?

> I've gone hungry and I know my Dad did. Going hungry and starvation are two vastly different things, both physiologically and mentally. > There was choices made by this person before they hit starve. And these choices were insufficient to save him. So now what? Do you want him to starve to death because he was unable to fix things? Are property rights for a few euros worth that much to you compared to the well-bein…

> And these choices were insufficient to save him

> If you think that is what I said, you did not understand what I wrote.

I cannot think otherwise because you seem to say that stealing is still the only means of survival. I offered what this person could do instead of stealing. Stealing is still not the only solution.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#305

Post by sheepdestroyer » Tue, May 03, 2016, 4:56 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #291

pka wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to force your morals on other people (by claiming they are absolute) makes the world a worse place.

Society does it all the time, that's why no murder and stealing are pretty much the first laws people make. Trying not to cause pain does not make the world a worse place.

Right to life is self evident while property's is not.

"La Propriété est elle juste?" - Proudhon

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#306

Post by KirinDave » Tue, May 03, 2016, 4:59 PM UTC

steego wrote: post #214

stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

> I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. * Stealing something back * Stealing Hitler's secret plans * Stealing a portion of everybody's property/income, but providing vital protection, infrastructure and social services in return. * Stealing the heart of a girl from a guy who abuses her. * Stealing land from the commons to efficiently put it to work * Stealing land at market valu…

The casual misogyny of this thread is impressively internalized.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#307

Post by wfo » Tue, May 03, 2016, 5:02 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #291

pka wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to force your morals on other people (by claiming they are absolute) makes the world a worse place.

Society does it all the time, that's why no murder and stealing are pretty much the first laws people make. Trying not to cause pain does not make the world a worse place.

Actually, that's not quite the case.

Every society has a law like "no murder -- except sometimes, when you can".

And a law like "no stealing -- except sometimes, when you can".

And sometimes trying not to cause pain does make the world a worse place. Would you have police officers try their hardest to avoid causing pain? Criminals feel quite a bit of pain when they are incarcerated.

Nothing in the world is ever so simple as you suggest.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#308

Post by coldtea » Tue, May 03, 2016, 5:03 PM UTC

eveningcoffee wrote: post #275

coldtea wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After considering the situation (well, to be honest he can be pretending), I decided to give the man 10 euros because if he really is starving, he should not stay there to collect small coins, but also as a test, such that he could be given further directions when he really is in need. Not much experience with being poor/homeless, have we? For those not faking it (which can happen too), a "starving" sign doesn't me…

Well, a poor choice of words then ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation )? Anyway, I do not think that this was the case you are describing. The guy acted like he was really starving. So perhaps he was, I really do not know, I am just describing what happened.

>Well, a poor choice of words then

Well, beggars and homeless people rarely have dictionaries at hand.

>The guy acted like he was really starving. So perhaps he was, I really do not know, I am just describing what happened.

Well, he might very well be very hungry. Often people in those situations can have 2-3 days between a decent eat.

But it's not necessary that they'd go buy something immediately as soon as they get a donation. Lots of factors can be involved, from waiting to gather some more (maybe with a few more they can even book in somewhere for the night and have a bed and a shower), down to and including some kind of perverse pride.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#309

Post by sago » Tue, May 03, 2016, 5:03 PM UTC

zo1 wrote: post #250

vidarh wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is black and white That you believe this makes it absolutely impossible for me to think you're not in a privileged position. > The whole point of government social programs is to provide for survival. There are organizations that provide and places to go. Great when you know where to go, and they work as they should. They are not perfect. And people are not perfect. Especially not when starving.

The problem with peddling guilt is that not everyone subscribes to it. I pay taxes, and I expect the needy and the poor and the sick and the hungry to be taken care of. If anyone should feel guilty, it should be the government leaders and the people that don't hold them accountable for the duties there are tasked with performing. I think stealing is wrong, no matter the situation and desperation. However, I also beli…

"Are there no Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"

"Both very busy, sir..."

"Those who are badly off must go there."

"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."

"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#310

Post by tptacek » Tue, May 03, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

steego wrote: post #214

stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

> I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. * Stealing something back * Stealing Hitler's secret plans * Stealing a portion of everybody's property/income, but providing vital protection, infrastructure and social services in return. * Stealing the heart of a girl from a guy who abuses her. * Stealing land from the commons to efficiently put it to work * Stealing land at market valu…

There is no such thing as "property rights" to someone's heart. I get what you were doing rhetorically with the list, but it interacted badly with your explanatory paragraph.