Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S. • Hacker News Board

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#301

Post by mrow84 » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 12:05 PM UTC

nickff wrote: post #81

ryandrake wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$6.2M sounds like a lot for any single human being.

$6.2M is not a lot for a big company if the leader can increase sales or profits by even a few percent... which does not appear to be the case here.

Why would you attribute an increase in sales or profits to the leader?

Just because Pharaoh decides to build a pyramid, doesn't mean it will happen, however hard they think it, without an army of people doing the actual work.

Also, after the fact, sure, you got a pyramid, but what might have happened if those people were doing something else? It is easy (and in leaders' interests) to take credit for non-negative changes, but it seems difficult to determine if there is any relationship between these changes and the actions of the leader (rather than some other effect), let alone establishing causality.

note: apologies for off-topic rant

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#302

Post by whatok » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 12:07 PM UTC

zenlikethat wrote: post #215

gozur88 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think it affects your job prospects when you refuse?

If they won't hire you because you won't disclose your salary, you don't want to work for that company anyway.

I think a much more likely scenario is that you won't get an interview at all. An employer is unlikely to consider you for a junior role that requires 10 years experience in another field.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#303

Post by Sven7 » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 12:08 PM UTC

lovemenot wrote: post #289

Sven7 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also well worth reading about T.J Watson. IBM was one of the few American companies that had no layoffs during the depression in the 30's. Inventories built up. No sales. And he was almost fired. Once the recovery started every company and govt in the world wanted a computer and the rest is history.

Recovery from the Depression in the USA started in the mid-late thirties. Are you saying IBM sold computers at that time? Just a matter of terminology here. I would probably not classify IBM's business machines as computers until the 1950's.

"Computers" were actually clerks in the census office that spent their days manually adding up and multiplying things. They got replaced by IBM's tabulators well before the 30's. But you are right IBM's inventory at the time was mostly tabulators.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#304

Post by mathattack » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 12:11 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #44

mathattack wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me like IBM is in perpetual layoff mode. It's not that the ship is turning around - it's that it's grinding down into irrelevance. In a sense IBM is doing it the right way - returning the capital (via dividends and buybacks) and people (unfortunately via layoffs) back to the market to work on productive things in configurations that add value. Better to do this than to waste everyone's time and money. (Bu…

> It seems to me like IBM is in perpetual layoff mode. Any large technology company has to be. > It's that it's grinding down into irrelevance Maybe? Who knows. They hung for 100 some years. As an entity they've done some things right for that to happen.

Do large tech companies need to be perpetually laying people off because various bets don't work? Or that they necessarily increase productivity so much faster than revenue? (What's unique about tech here?)

I'm curious, not accusatory.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#305

Post by tuyguntn » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 12:12 PM UTC

ransom1538 wrote: post #219

dredmorbius wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Among other factors mentioned: employer-specific skillsets. Technology jobs are very highly specialised. And I'm not just speaking of computer tech. I'm old enough to have seen several generations of obsoleted "gold tickets". Nuclear Engineering, future destroyed March 28, 1979. Freeway engineers, the freeway protests of the 1960s/1970s. Big Three auto manufacturers, dream destroyed with the first oil embargo, and su…

Regarding skill sets. I have only been in software 12 years or so, but I noticed a type of tech 'gamble'. Basically, when you decided to learn something in tech you are basically gambling that the tech will last. In 2007 many faced a simple decision: AS3 or iOS. Supposed you chose AS3. Then, worked on it from 2009-2012, quite profitably. Currently the AS3 job outlook is horrific, and all that knowledge is a waste. No…

Why GO? (out of curiosity, because doing some production things in Go already and successfully)

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#306

Post by SolaceQuantum » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 12:21 PM UTC

finstell wrote: post #292

jwiley wrote: post #97

During the dot-com bust of the early 2000s, I was working at a super-market. One of the guys stocking shelves was a software engineer laid off by a large company after 40 years. The management at Winn Dixie put him stacking boxes in the freezer section...since they knew he needed the money and wouldn't quit. Maybe he deserved to get fired, maybe he didn't. The lesson to me that has been reinforced over my career in t…

Economic downturn happens every now and again. That's expected. You cannot change it. What a software engineer should have done was to be prepared for it. I don't see any valid reasons for him to end up in a supermarket job. 2000s crisis lasted a couple of years at the most. He should have had the means to survive comfortably the temporary time period when he was without an income. The lesson is: Be prepared as if yo…

I don't know anyone who is regularly prepared to go years without income. A lot of people can't afford that.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#307

Post by mtbcoder » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 12:24 PM UTC

finstell wrote: post #292

jwiley wrote: post #97

During the dot-com bust of the early 2000s, I was working at a super-market. One of the guys stocking shelves was a software engineer laid off by a large company after 40 years. The management at Winn Dixie put him stacking boxes in the freezer section...since they knew he needed the money and wouldn't quit. Maybe he deserved to get fired, maybe he didn't. The lesson to me that has been reinforced over my career in t…

Economic downturn happens every now and again. That's expected. You cannot change it. What a software engineer should have done was to be prepared for it. I don't see any valid reasons for him to end up in a supermarket job. 2000s crisis lasted a couple of years at the most. He should have had the means to survive comfortably the temporary time period when he was without an income. The lesson is: Be prepared as if yo…

That's assuming one has the ability to sock away enough savings to ease the burden of any long-term unemployment. The reality though is that millions of US citizens do not even have this option, even knowing full well that they need to be saving more. They simply cannot because the cost of living is too great and wages are too low. The fact that the US is "not a social country, you are on your own when shit happens", while correct, is big a problem for all citizens and it amazes me how pervasive this cowboy mentality has become, especially amongst the populations that are living month-to-month and which would greatly benefit from strong social contracts.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#308

Post by johansch » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 12:25 PM UTC

yarou wrote: post #264

dredmorbius wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frequently a negative sign. Up-and-coming tech frequently has a flood of talent. Dying: companies with vested systems (say, Cobol, or Solaris) are catching the tail-end of the curve. The truly good programmers have gotten out, or switched skills, or transferred to management. Hopping on a sinking ship usually doesn't last long. (Nothing against Perl. It's just a seriously fading language at this point.)

I'm sure they said the same thing 10 years ago.

https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=perl

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#309

Post by forgetsusername » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 12:28 PM UTC

mattzito wrote: post #22

rdtsc wrote: post #11

That is a good sign. It means the ship is slowly turning around. It sucks for the employees being laid off, no doubt. However they have to do this. There is no other way. They bet big on support and services in early 2000s. So they have lots of those employees. Could they all start to learn new things adapt to the new environment, yeah, some will but not everyone will. Heck, if they didn't lay off people, they'd stil…

See, these types of comments are (again) why people have negative opinions towards silicon valley types. You may be right, but a good sign for whom, exactly? For the people who lost their jobs? For shareholders? For fans of IBM the company? Sure, yes, I agree that IBM probably has to shed people in order to stay competitive. However, it's not the fault of the people who are being affected by this, as by and large the…

>However, it's not the fault of the people who are being affected by this

So, are the worker bees accountable for the success of a company, or are they merely anonymous cogs? HN seems to like it both ways; when some executive or manager gets acclaim, we're quick to point that it's the regular employees doing the "real work" in the company. But when it goes south, we question what part they played in the thing, and point the blame elsewhere.

It isn't merely incompetent management that are responsible. And there's also a lot of bad luck involved. A plan was implemented, it didn't work; should the 10's of thousands of remaining workers suffer?

>Why is it that we treat this as a necessary evil, instead of something to be disappointed about?

It's both.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#310

Post by SolaceQuantum » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 12:37 PM UTC

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #184

toyg wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, sure, but mortgages and kids' needs tend to get in the way of philosophical and strategic thinking.

People with mortgages and kids don't move to new places where there's more, or at least more immediate, economic opportunity? Why not? Kids are mobile. Mortgages can be covered by tenants or by selling the property (usually). I only have kid (singular) and lack a mortgage, but I'd definitely move my family to a place with more opportunity if the well ran dry where we're at now. I wouldn't even hesitate or think twice…

Kids are hardly mobile. Remember that they're kids and may not be capable of coping fully with losing their friends and familiar surroundings to a different place with no guarantee of things being better for them. Minor anecdote, when I moved from Canada to USA in my childhood, my little brother who was 12 at the time tried to run away to avoid losing all his friends he had made.