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Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

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Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#31
post #26

Is anyone compiling a list of the settings I'll need to check when I finally make the jump from Windows 7 to 10 in a few months? I'd like to be on a newer OS, but between this and Cortana and some sort of XBL overlay that apparently messes with game performance, I'm going to need to do research into the optimal setup first.

Privacy settings are described here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/3f38ed/guide_how...

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#32
post #17

Remind me again why people on HN are so keen to embrace Microsoft? Seems like they're still up to the same dirty, user-hostile tricks as they've always been since the 90's.

Actually, Win10 looks a whole lot more subversively aggressive in the quest for "user convenience". Free upgrade! ads in you Start menu. Friends easily join your secured network! by offering password to anyone who asks. Better upgrade distributions! by choking your bandwidth and abusing data caps. Every objectionable feature can be turned off! if you have any idea it's on, and nigh-unto-punitive limitations imposed f…

IIRC, Bill Gates famously sent a memo amounting to "you've got to be kidding me" regarding user experience

Wasn't that about microsoft.com? WRT the download page? I don't recall anything about him bashing an actual desktop product. If I'm wrong and you can dig up a link, I'd like to read it. The "trying to download xxx" rant was classic!

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#33
Windows 10 is turning out to be a giant bate and switch for the average user. Most people will not even suspect that their bandwidth is being leached, their information is being sucked from their entire computer and their whole OS is left wide open to whoever microsoft deems worthy.

The entire thing feels like a gigantic violation by taking advantage of the average person's ability or willingness to deal with all the added complexity.

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#34

I'm all about peer to peer to make efficient use of resources but this, to me, is another feature that should be opt in by default. If you are like me you have a decent connection, know for a fact you're not utilizing as much as you're given and understand how a P2P protocol can help you and those around you. But your average user doesn't really know what this all means without explanation. IMO most people probably h…

If they were going to change anything, I think the LAN-only policy they employ for Enterprise and Education should probably be the default. That said, instead of changing anything I'd so much rather see MS take this and run with it, working with ISPs to help them understand that this traffic should be exempt (or even rewarded as a bandwidth credit) because it'll lower ISP costs and improve customer satisfaction simlu…

That's pretty much against net neutrality

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#35
post #23

If a Microsoft can get away with sharing customers resources like this, could a bank do the same? When forming an account, they add some default opt-out service to "share" resources between accounts in order to help people get a better loan experience.

I'm not sure if you're being facetious, but isn't that exactly what banks do?

You deposit money, banks go off and invest that money to do stuff, they give you a little interest as "pay back". I don't think it's even something you can opt-out of (maybe depending on what kind of account you open?).

It's the reason why bank runs are bad for the banks. They don't take your cash and keep it in a vault, they turn around and try to make more money with your money. They don't have enough liquidity to give everybody their money back all at the same time.

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or perhaps the default should have been "PCs on my local network." I knew this feature was coming (wasn't paying attention to the details of it, though) and actually thought it is a great feature for actually "reducing" bandwidth usage.

Yeah, that's a good idea too. Kind of WSUS for the home. The article does say Windows 10 Enterprise and Education have the feature enabled, but only for the local network. So at least that's a sensible default for business/schools.

It'll actually wreck havoc on a lot of small businesses, actually.

A lot of smaller businesses where operating system upgrades/update cycles are ad hoc, and mostly on whatever comes with their new PCs (which usually is Home editions) and won't or can't upgrade to Enterprise. (I don't know if the Pro version's also set up the same way -- but even then, I wouldn't say there's great incentive/reason there, too, anyways.)

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#37
post #15

I think that they have a list of approved ISPs or some dependable way to make sure it doesn't happen on metered connections. http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/windows-update... "As with Windows 8.1, Windows 10 won't automatically download updates or apps if it detects that your PC is using a metered connection. Similarly, Delivery Optimization won’t automatically download or send parts of updates or apps…

Don't you actually have to specify that your connection is metered in order to that to work? I think it's for tagging things like wireless hotspot, etc.

I'm not sure exactly how it works but there is documentation on what they're calling "Connection Cost".

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/xaml/w...

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/xaml/m...

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh7503...

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#38
post #11

Wow "Microsoft says that the feature “helps people get updates and apps more quickly if they have a limited or unreliable Internet connection” and “does not slow down your internet connection” as it uses a “limited portion” of idle upload bandwidth." Sorry but Microsoft cannot know that. They can know how much bandwidth your machine has access to on some level, but they cannot know what kind of strain is being put on…

You actually can. Look into TCP slow start and backoff, congestion avoidance, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCP_congestion-avoidance_algor...

This is not correct. TCP does not know the total amount of bandwidth available on a network link just like it does not know the total amount of unused bandwidth available on the same link - hence the need for additive increase.

What will happen is that two TCPs will share the available bandwidth (or close to it) via AIMD. However, if you've ever uploaded a file on an asynchronous Internet connection (i.e. a DSL connection), saturation of the uplink kills effective throughput for other TCPs (I presume because ACKs queue up at the router and are either delayed or timeout, resulting in fast retransmit if you're lucky, and a timeout at the sender if you're not).

> "does not slow down your internet connection" as it uses a "limited portion" of idle upload bandwidth."

How do Microsoft know what your upload bandwidth is? When do Microsoft know when that upload bandwidth is no longer idle?

Is there an RTT estimator that stops the upload if the RTT exceeds a threshold? How would Microsoft know what the RTT should be for that customers network link?

Perhaps they can detect consecutive timeouts of TCP segments? That would be interesting because the TCP I know provide the abstraction of a reliable, in order transmission over an unreliable network - so why would this API call exist? Perhaps it does exist? Can anyone comment?

I think this raises more questions that it answers?

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#39
post #25
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of hope it does. Nothing will educate people about the difference between protocol and content like making a ton of customers angry by banning them without cause.

> Nothing will educate people about the difference between protocol and content like making a ton of customers angry by banning them without cause. When people think of torrenting copyrighted material as some sort of talent that they are proud to have (I've meet plenty of people who are actually feel proud/clever to torrent games/movies/shows) - they honestly think Comcast is/would be a bad company for disconnecting…

My point is that in this case it will actually be unfair, and they'll get the weight of the tech community behind them rather than just being silly.

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#40
post #29

Microsoft seems to be setting all their defaults to "screw the user". This isn't good. Distributing Windows 10 as a drive-by install that takes over your machine and turns it into a spamming node is really sleazy. Microsoft is giving away Windows 10. That's a huge problem. It's not a compelling product they can get people to pay for, unlike all previous versions of Windows. Microsoft, for the first time, has to claw…

"It's not a compelling product they can get people to pay for, unlike all previous versions of Windows."

I don't think Windows has been a compelling product people pay for since Windows 95 (or just maybe XP). How many home users specifically go out of their way to buy Windows? IME most people use whichever version of Windows comes with their computer when they buy it, and only change versions when they buy a new computer. So the people who are getting a Windows 10 upgrade for free are mostly people who wouldn't have bought it anyway.

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