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Stop pushing the web forward

quirksmode.org

31–40 of 307 posts

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#31

"However, web apps also allow organizations to write once for many platforms in a much more seamless way than most cross-platform native toolkits I've seen." Does it? I used to think that. Until every medium-complexity or worse web project I've worked on took forever as we went through all the different browsers and OS's and now mobile and tablets and responsive and OMG just give me a decent native app tool now pleas…

Was this in reply to my top-level comment? Looks like this ended up a sibling instead.

In reply to your comment:

Perhaps, and I lack the experience and evidence to contradict you. I work solo on small to mid size projects that are mostly back-end. But I am fairly confident that with the large number of mid+ size web app projects we would be seeing a migration back to more native apps if the overhead is actually greater than maintaining multiple native apps.

It's not like every company in the world is incapable of independently assessing their needs. And bandwagons will form when independently-minded companies change their processes. So why aren't we seeing a mass exodus from complex web apps? And why are many orgs using native wrappers around these supposedly terrible web apps to produce a pseudo-native app?

EDIT: Also, how would you address how much easier it is to try out a web app without having to install it vs. finding, downloading, installing and running a native/mobile app?

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#32
post #16
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What JavaScript needs much more IMO is a (better) stdlib, with more datatypes and procedures than currently available (including big numbers, the various flavours of trees, etc). Isn't that "pushing JavaScript forward?"

Maybe what skwosh means is a moratorium on new features in javascript so that we can refocus on the features that are useful, and actually improve rather than complect the language.

Thanks, that's what I mean. My feeling is that some of the syntactic extensions to the language are piecemeal and don't reflect the full expressivity of JavaScript.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#34
post #8

> But why do web developers want navigation transitions? In order to emulate native apps, of course. If we're doing unpopular opinion time, I think this is the real issue that no one wants to talk about. I'm all for whatever feature development the community can standardize. Apple, google, mozilla, and etc. all have smart people working for them and when they cooperate things seem to work out fine. The problem is try…

Back before the PC, didn't IBM and some other mainframe companies try to lease out terminals? This in that you could get a terminal on your home desk, that either via dedicated line or basic dialup would connect to a mainframe where you paid minute or something?

In a sense the web browser, and SaaS, has become a reinvention of that...

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#35
Much too late. If something is not plain text or PDF/A it has already bitrotted away, or is well on its way.

The Web is an ephemeral enterprise.That's why everything relevant has a DOI and not an URI.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#36

We need a break. We need an opportunity to learn to the features we already have responsibly — without tools! Also, we need the time for a fundamental conversation about where we want to push the web forward to. How about this.. YOU take a break. Stop trying to keep up with every little new thing that comes out. Wait a while. And you'll get exactly what you want. The tools that it turns out were a bad idea will die.…

This works for the latest JavaScript framework, but is a lot more problematic when it comes to jamming fads into the browser: we have to support them, and work around them for a long long time.

[deleted]

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#37
post #8

> But why do web developers want navigation transitions? In order to emulate native apps, of course. If we're doing unpopular opinion time, I think this is the real issue that no one wants to talk about. I'm all for whatever feature development the community can standardize. Apple, google, mozilla, and etc. all have smart people working for them and when they cooperate things seem to work out fine. The problem is try…

I don't associate "navigation transitions" with native apps. What native apps have navigation transitions? I think the iPod really popularized sliding screens and the like, and they spread to mobile.

The feature for web browsers makes sense as progressive enhancement. Instead of using a "tool" (library), you just say "use this transition" and if the browser supports it, it does.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#38
post #4

As a corollary I'd like to say: stop pushing JavaScript forward. There seems to be a lot of focus on providing syntactic sugar for things that already exist (like classes, decorators, etc) at the expense of flexibility and composability (executable class bodies, @foo vs normal function application, etc). What JavaScript needs much more IMO is a (better) stdlib, with more datatypes and procedures than currently availa…

Javascript has decorators?

Yes, at least in ES7. Babel supports them.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#39
New features also mean new security bugs. A complete freeze might not be optimal, but the "security cost" of new features could be given more weight when deciding to add something to browsers.

Re: Stop pushing the web forward

#40
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This works for the latest JavaScript framework, but is a lot more problematic when it comes to jamming fads into the browser: we have to support them, and work around them for a long long time.

[deleted]

Lots more than browser devs get hit by this. Crawler developers, screen-reader devs, browser plugin devs, mobile app devs, etc.
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