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Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

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Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#31

Most likely this submission will be flagged as most sexism or racism articles get flagged. Corporate American needs a major reform. US society need a major reform. Our culture and community need major reforms. The way boys and girls are raised need to be changed, the way they are educated and develop social skills and people skills need to change as well. As it is Corporate America and the Tech industry has developed…

> When I was a young boy in the 1970s it was different

People in the 70's thought work life was hellacious and going deeper into hell, just like today, and every decade since (and probably every prior decade). I recall people declaring they weren't going to have children and bring them into the rotten world. Of course, the politicians all campaigned on fixing everything, just like today, and nothing changed, just like today.

Source: I was working for a living in the 70's.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#32
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do VC funded female founders hire a disproportional percentage of tech women? The delta between women tech employees in male and female founded firms should tell us if a discriminatory environment is the cause.

No. You cannot rule out the possibility that women discriminate women, too, or that environmental influences from outside the work floor cause the effect.

If women discriminate then we should know this as it would be very helpful to know why.

If the cause is environmental influences outside the workplace then it is a bit hard for anyone to solve from within the workplace. It also makes any hypothesis of sexism untestable since there is no possible evidence that could be gathered that could ever disprove sexism as the cause.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#33
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also sounds like a bias against men. Men are perfectly capable of feeding and dressing themselves. And while I don't know what exactly "cruise directing" means in this context, there is no reason to believe that men aren't also capable of doing that either. I just got out of a relationship where I handled all those responsibilities. I wasn't compensated for it, nor did I expect to be. Insofar as my own generation is…

Sure. I agree, and certaintly cannot argue with you about facts of your own life. It's more subtle: I don't think anyone is making sweeping uniform generalisations. i.e. "ALL MEN DO a" "ALL WOMEN DO b". I'm not claiming anything about specific individuals. but I am indeed claiming there is a general bias, at least in a statistical sense. For example, here's an arbitrary statistic from the UK in 2012 [1]: > Just over…

I'd take that bet if we're talking about the SF Bay Area.

I honestly have a hard time with any such figures since they take entire heterogenous regions and distill them down to a single figure that isn't going to hold true for all places. Single figures suggest homogeneity and that couldn't be further from the truth.

The UK is not the US. There are totally different cultural forces at play. I'm half British and all my aunts do most of the housework. My female and male cousins are one generation younger and share homemaking responsibilities with their male/female counterparts. The effect is stronger for those that live in larger cities. I've also live in China and Brazil. The homemaking habits of either country are not in the least bit applicable to the US.

Even within the US, there are big differences between California (where I live now) and North Carolina (where I went to school and college). Many of my classmates that stayed in Raleigh-Durham area have lifestyles where women are likely to handle homemaking responsibilities relative to those that left the region to live in places like SF, NYC and LA.

Here in the Bay Area, it's even more extreme. I wouldn't assume that any of the women I encounter does any more or less housework than any of the men I encounter.

Since all this talk is about the SF Bay Area and regions that aren't the least bit comparable in terms of homemaking activities. I don't even know many tech couples that live together. If they live together, they both handle homemaking activities.

You can't take a bias from somewhere else and blindly apply it to the SF Bay Area.

Furthermore, the modern house is sufficiently automated or simplified that handling home chores is hardly the full time or even part time job it once was. Laundry you can do once a week to every two weeks. You can get a roomba. You have services like homejoy to take care of the heavy duty chores like cleaning the bathrooms, mopping floors and cleaning the kitchen. I'm one of the few people I know that actually handles such chores themselves instead of hiring help to do it. It's not that hard and it's not that time consuming, especially considering that most people can hardly afford more than 300 to 600 square feet of living space per dwelling inhabitant in this city.

At the end of the day, these figures just aren't compelling as a way to describe the housekeeping chores division between men and women that work in tech in Silicon Valley.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#34
post #10

"When Google increased paid maternity leave from 12 weeks to 18 weeks, the number of new moms who quit Google dropped by 50%." This seems to be such a spectacularly good result that I wonder why they haven't tried it sooner.

Well, they didn't know, did they.

But I would say that with such good results, they might want to increase it even further. 18 weeks is still rather short.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#35
> Create a collaborative environment Stanford research studies document that women are more likely to dislike competitive environments compared to men and are more likely to select out of them

That is not how it works. Tech is as pure marketplace of ideas as possible. So while we should all collaborate after the decisions are made, the process before them is by definition adversarial. We must nitpick and deconstruct each other's solutions. Because we programmers cannot work if we don't understand anything in full. To grok it.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#36
post #28

> These biases occur unconsciously and without intention or malice. As someone who has faced situations where a gender microagression has caused workplace conflict, the above quote cannot be stressed enough. Just because you didn't have the intention to be biased or discriminate does not mean it did not happen. For some reason this concept eludes even the sharpest people. We all have our biases. It's about time we ow…

What is "gender microagression”?

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#37
post #14

Serious question: why are women so harsh to EACH OTHER? From the article: > both men and women were significantly more likely to hire a male applicant than a female applicant with an identical record. And from the linked studies: "Men only penalized female candidates for attempting to negotiate whereas women penalized both male and female candidates." And the pay rates, and drops, from here http://www.pnas.org/conten…

sexism is not something individual men perpetrate against individual women, it is a systemic set of biases built into the fabric of society. women are part of that fabric just as much as men are.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#38

From my experience: 1. It is a pipeline problem (I never got as much women applications as I wanted, even with targeting a women audience) 2. It is a problem of not enough role models for women (so women do not see themselves in tech and do not aspire for tech careers or for becoming CTOs - women CTOs go a long way here). 3. It is a problem of the vile and toxicity of the tech community in general (just see all the f…

Wrt the pipeline, I have to agree to a large extent. I admit it, I'm biased on a lot of levels, not really against gender, but I will admit I prefer to work with men. That said, doing pre-screening of applications at a job a few years ago opened my eyes a lot.

To be honest, I no longer hold much of any value to a resume... I've seen too many people with higher degrees and years of experience that can't seem to do what it says they can on said resume. Me, I'm particularly bad at white board coding... but I understand the need. That said, I'd rather have a laptop connected to a projector.

I've probably sat in on a couple hundred interviews of other people over the years, and only a handful were of women... For the most part, I appreciate that women tend to be much more accurate on their resumes and in responses as to their skill level. I've never really liked excessive arrogance, and prefer someone more honest. This is just me though.

I also think that efforts to make language and interactions politically correct are a disservice to the goal of letting anyone that wants to work in IT do so. A few months back I witnessed someone pretty much accosted because he dared to ask, "...can any of you guys help me with this?". My extended family is over 80% female... my step father was an only child, but my mom was one of 4 sisters, her mom one of three, and half of the women in my family only had daughters (including my sister). hearing things like "I miss you guys." was said by women, to women, without any gender bias, as a generic phrasing.

There's a difference between being overtly sensitive and issues of bias/discrimination worth bringing up. We're at a point where awareness is increasing, but as a society we've also been heading down a path of so much excessive sensitivity that it's downright abusive towards people who aren't ill-meaning. I hope that a balance is found sooner than later.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#39
post #10

"When Google increased paid maternity leave from 12 weeks to 18 weeks, the number of new moms who quit Google dropped by 50%." This seems to be such a spectacularly good result that I wonder why they haven't tried it sooner.

What was the base of this drop? Do the vast majority on moms at google stay or leave? If 99.9% of moms before the change stayed then a 50% change in the 0.1% who left is not too informative, but if 80% previously left then it is very significant.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#40
post #14

Serious question: why are women so harsh to EACH OTHER? From the article: > both men and women were significantly more likely to hire a male applicant than a female applicant with an identical record. And from the linked studies: "Men only penalized female candidates for attempting to negotiate whereas women penalized both male and female candidates." And the pay rates, and drops, from here http://www.pnas.org/conten…

Also from the article: "These biases occur unconsciously and without intention or malice."

In my opinion, the origin of these biases is in the early, formative years: When children see mom stay at home and dad go to work, they learn that that's the way things are - without any conscious negative judgement and regardless of gender. It's the society they grew up in, so seeing something deviate from that can create a bias. It's naturally self-propagating as well, so it will take conscious effort (from everyone) over generations to overcome.

I highly recommend taking the Harvard Implicit Gender - Career Bias test (https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html). I found it extremely enlightening because I could actually FEEL my brain pulling me to answer incorrectly. It's timed, so there's mental pressure to make quick decisions - where the brain takes advantage of pattern matching that's been trained over a lifetime.

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