What part of speech is “the”? (2006) • Hacker News Board

Re: What part of speech is “the”? (2006)

#31

Post by pests » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 3:55 AM UTC

Cushman wrote: post #27

peterfirefly wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not really "wrong" to say "the" is an adjective: it functions exactly like one! The, theer, theest? The, more the, most the? The shoe was red but most importantly, it was the. She had never before seen so the a shoe! In the clearing was old a house with smoke rising from stone the chimney. Edit: couldn't decide on the number of shoes so I went for both singular and plural :(

Not to sincerely defend the claim that "the" "is" an adjective, but rather to dispute the general notion that grammar is "real": Here are some adjectives that fail your tests. > The, theer, theest? The, more the, most the? * Worstest? Most least? > The shoe was red but most importantly, it was the. She had never before seen so the a shoe! * The smallest shoe confused her. How could it be so smallest?! > In the cleari…

Wait, what exactly is wrong about the last one? It sounds odd, but not so incorrect, to me.

Re: What part of speech is “the”? (2006)

#32

Post by cjhveal » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 3:56 AM UTC

escherplex wrote: post #26

SilasX wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the article points out, it's not really "wrong" to say "the" is an adjective: it functions exactly like one! It's only wrong in the sense of violating one of two equally useful classification systems. And this error doesn't even bubble up to the level of miscommunication, the only real sense in which you can say someone's usage is incorrect! Remember, in everyday use, you don't directly observe word classification…

Other modern languages such as Russian, Japanese, Chinese, and others get by perfectly well without the qualifiers 'the' and 'a', which according to Wikipedia are the first and sixth most frequently used words in English respectively, so they don't seem cognitively compulsory for understanding. And juxtaposing British English with US English 'the' has throw-away status in assertions such as 'I am going to university'…

It should be noted, however, that while many languages get by without explicitly marking definiteness, there are other linguistic techniques that can provide similar contextual clues that are required for understanding the pragmatic meaning of an utterance. Topic-comment structures[1] are often used to convey a sense of what is assumed as new versus known information. For instance, Russian's relatively free word order allows it to rearrange the constituents of the sentence so that the topic (what is being talked about, usually familiar to the listener) precedes the comment (what is being said about the topic). Japanese has this baked-in with particles that mark the topic (see [2]).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic_and_comment [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_grammar#Topic.2C_them...

Re: What part of speech is “the”? (2006)

#33

Post by lnanek2 » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 3:59 AM UTC

escherplex wrote: post #26

SilasX wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the article points out, it's not really "wrong" to say "the" is an adjective: it functions exactly like one! It's only wrong in the sense of violating one of two equally useful classification systems. And this error doesn't even bubble up to the level of miscommunication, the only real sense in which you can say someone's usage is incorrect! Remember, in everyday use, you don't directly observe word classification…

Other modern languages such as Russian, Japanese, Chinese, and others get by perfectly well without the qualifiers 'the' and 'a', which according to Wikipedia are the first and sixth most frequently used words in English respectively, so they don't seem cognitively compulsory for understanding. And juxtaposing British English with US English 'the' has throw-away status in assertions such as 'I am going to university'…

There's several cases in Chinese where you just have to add a da or some other meaningless word just to get things to sound the correct way with the right number of syllables and word spacing, however. The rules are different, but it's effectively just as useless but still required to talk correctly.

Re: What part of speech is “the”? (2006)

#34

Post by lnanek2 » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 4:00 AM UTC

Cushman wrote: post #27

peterfirefly wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not really "wrong" to say "the" is an adjective: it functions exactly like one! The, theer, theest? The, more the, most the? The shoe was red but most importantly, it was the. She had never before seen so the a shoe! In the clearing was old a house with smoke rising from stone the chimney. Edit: couldn't decide on the number of shoes so I went for both singular and plural :(

Not to sincerely defend the claim that "the" "is" an adjective, but rather to dispute the general notion that grammar is "real": Here are some adjectives that fail your tests. > The, theer, theest? The, more the, most the? * Worstest? Most least? > The shoe was red but most importantly, it was the. She had never before seen so the a shoe! * The smallest shoe confused her. How could it be so smallest?! > In the cleari…

Actually there's an order you are supposed to apply things like that. Maybe someone came up with it after the fact, but there is a determinative way to make a list of adjectives sound right.

Re: What part of speech is “the”? (2006)

#35

Post by peterfirefly » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 4:02 AM UTC

pests wrote: post #31

Cushman wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to sincerely defend the claim that "the" "is" an adjective, but rather to dispute the general notion that grammar is "real": Here are some adjectives that fail your tests. > The, theer, theest? The, more the, most the? * Worstest? Most least? > The shoe was red but most importantly, it was the. She had never before seen so the a shoe! * The smallest shoe confused her. How could it be so smallest?! > In the cleari…

Wait, what exactly is wrong about the last one? It sounds odd, but not so incorrect, to me.

It is perfectly grammatical if "brick" is taken to be a verb.

Edit: this is in reference to "brick the barn". Grammatical if nonsensical. "Brick ancient barn" is of course weird and wrong unless you really want to emphasize that this is a brick ancient barn and not a wooden ancient barn like all the other ancient barns. The normal adjective order can be deviated from for emphasis. My point was that that didn't work when "the" was one of the "adjectives".

(I've been trying to fall asleep for hours so I make mistakes left and right -- I apologize for not being clear about the word list I referred to.)

Re: What part of speech is “the”? (2006)

#36

Post by henrikschroder » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 4:05 AM UTC

pests wrote: post #31

Cushman wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to sincerely defend the claim that "the" "is" an adjective, but rather to dispute the general notion that grammar is "real": Here are some adjectives that fail your tests. > The, theer, theest? The, more the, most the? * Worstest? Most least? > The shoe was red but most importantly, it was the. She had never before seen so the a shoe! * The smallest shoe confused her. How could it be so smallest?! > In the cleari…

Wait, what exactly is wrong about the last one? It sounds odd, but not so incorrect, to me.

http://www.gingersoftware.com/content/grammar-rules/adjectiv...

Most people would be comfortable saying "ancient grey brick barn".

Re: What part of speech is “the”? (2006)

#37

Post by tokipin » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 4:07 AM UTC

Cushman wrote: post #27

peterfirefly wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not really "wrong" to say "the" is an adjective: it functions exactly like one! The, theer, theest? The, more the, most the? The shoe was red but most importantly, it was the. She had never before seen so the a shoe! In the clearing was old a house with smoke rising from stone the chimney. Edit: couldn't decide on the number of shoes so I went for both singular and plural :(

Not to sincerely defend the claim that "the" "is" an adjective, but rather to dispute the general notion that grammar is "real": Here are some adjectives that fail your tests. > The, theer, theest? The, more the, most the? * Worstest? Most least? > The shoe was red but most importantly, it was the. She had never before seen so the a shoe! * The smallest shoe confused her. How could it be so smallest?! > In the cleari…

I wager it's consensus that determines what sequence of words is considered "proper" or not. Personally I have very generous criteria for what a reasonable sentence is. Thought experiment: Reversed words of sequence the with but us for valid as count would that anything be to sentence valid a define.

When we're young we absorb language the way we experience it, in an informal and cultural way. I think in any attempt to categorize aspects of language this basic character has to be respected (which it is in linguistics, being fundamental to it, but which it isn't in e.g. English canon).

Accepting that one's language is actually a messy evolution-convolution of ancient languages is easier for some than others. :D

Re: What part of speech is “the”? (2006)

#38

Post by belovedeagle » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 4:07 AM UTC

Cushman wrote: post #27

peterfirefly wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not really "wrong" to say "the" is an adjective: it functions exactly like one! The, theer, theest? The, more the, most the? The shoe was red but most importantly, it was the. She had never before seen so the a shoe! In the clearing was old a house with smoke rising from stone the chimney. Edit: couldn't decide on the number of shoes so I went for both singular and plural :(

Not to sincerely defend the claim that "the" "is" an adjective, but rather to dispute the general notion that grammar is "real": Here are some adjectives that fail your tests. > The, theer, theest? The, more the, most the? * Worstest? Most least? > The shoe was red but most importantly, it was the. She had never before seen so the a shoe! * The smallest shoe confused her. How could it be so smallest?! > In the cleari…

The first two (worstest/most least, so smallest) are easily classified as wrong because "-est", "most", and "so" only apply to adjectives of positive degree rather than comparative or superlative. So to deny that grammar is "real" using these examples is to attack a strawman.

Re: What part of speech is “the”? (2006)

#39

Post by Cushman » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 4:09 AM UTC

belovedeagle wrote: post #38

Cushman wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to sincerely defend the claim that "the" "is" an adjective, but rather to dispute the general notion that grammar is "real": Here are some adjectives that fail your tests. > The, theer, theest? The, more the, most the? * Worstest? Most least? > The shoe was red but most importantly, it was the. She had never before seen so the a shoe! * The smallest shoe confused her. How could it be so smallest?! > In the cleari…

The first two (worstest/most least, so smallest) are easily classified as wrong because "-est", "most", and "so" only apply to adjectives of positive degree rather than comparative or superlative. So to deny that grammar is "real" using these examples is to attack a strawman.

Oh, I get what you're saying-- so "the" must be a superlative adjective, right? Makes sense really, as it's the "most specific" article.

Re: What part of speech is “the”? (2006)

#40

Post by plorkyeran » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 4:19 AM UTC

Cushman wrote: post #27

peterfirefly wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not really "wrong" to say "the" is an adjective: it functions exactly like one! The, theer, theest? The, more the, most the? The shoe was red but most importantly, it was the. She had never before seen so the a shoe! In the clearing was old a house with smoke rising from stone the chimney. Edit: couldn't decide on the number of shoes so I went for both singular and plural :(

Not to sincerely defend the claim that "the" "is" an adjective, but rather to dispute the general notion that grammar is "real": Here are some adjectives that fail your tests. > The, theer, theest? The, more the, most the? * Worstest? Most least? > The shoe was red but most importantly, it was the. She had never before seen so the a shoe! * The smallest shoe confused her. How could it be so smallest?! > In the cleari…

"brick grey ancient barn" is grammatically correct if you assume "brick grey" is a color, but of course that's probably not what it's supposed to mean.