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Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

nytimes.com

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Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#31

Post by guard-of-terra »

linschn wrote: post #20
guard-of-terra wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'information comes during the processing of previous information and the output partly loops back to the input" Computers do this all the time. Simplest example is "cancel" button everywhere.

The point is that out definition of the computability of a function is too narrow, and does not take into account the real-time all connected nature of the computation the brain does. Therefore, we lack formal way of satisfactorily compare the brain to a Turing Machine.

I don't see why. Your computer reacts to keyboard and mouse in the real time, also for network packets going in and out. And it's plain turing machine. It does so by regarding every input as they become available, one by one.

Information comes to brain via neurons, and those have finite speed, it's not as they had quantum-like properties. Signal in; signal out, with delay and altered magnitude.

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#32

Post by avera »

My closest belief is near similar as mentioned in article, that brain, at some level has some "computational primitive", which resembles transistor functionality.

But that is only one level. There can be additional layers of function, which can be influenced by sub-atomic entities, like elementary particles. We still don't know how deep this goes. This is, what most likely, provides depth of our consciousness.

Our biological hardware is built out of finite atoms. Consciousness unfolds out of "electrochemical circuits". Electricity == consciousness.

We have what is called "human energy" - emotions are one example of expressions out of it.

For AI, to be human like, it has to simulate physical behaviour of human energy.

I see, that out of this energy behaviour simulations can emerge what I call "computational psychology". That is, computer could analyze and decode human behaviour and "understand" like psychologist does this.

Thing is, that many people don't see these subtle patterns - they are learned over lifetime with different success rates. Once they are aware of these patterns, they can function more efficiently as a human. Such "psychologist as app in your pocket" potentially can raise overall quality of society.

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#33

Post by ScottBurson »

I'll never forget hearing Jerry Lettvin [0] pronounce, in his slow, measured, way: "The brain is not a computer. The brain is a gland."

I think he said it partly to tweak his MIT AI Lab audience (this must have been about 1982). But he had a point: a lot goes on in the brain that is not digital.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome_Lettvin

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#34

Post by guard-of-terra »

ScottBurson wrote: post #33

I'll never forget hearing Jerry Lettvin [0] pronounce, in his slow, measured, way: "The brain is not a computer. The brain is a gland ." I think he said it partly to tweak his MIT AI Lab audience (this must have been about 1982). But he had a point: a lot goes on in the brain that is not digital. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome_Lettvin

My computer also doubles as fan and vacuum cleaner.

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#35

Post by electrograv »

coldtea wrote: post #17

I find the metaphor bad. My brain might work like a computer (computation et al), but the word computer evokes actual existing computers to a layman -- and my brain doesn't have a von neumann architecture, nor does it run something similar to our software. A neural network does computation of course, but we wouldn't call it a "computer" in the sense we use the word when dealing with, well, computers.

I agree; saying "the brain is a computer" is much like saying "the universe is a computer".

We can simulate the universe with astounding accuracy on many levels (though not all) with computers. Furthermore, when studying the universe deeply we see astoundingly computer-like traits[1]. But to express this by saying the universe is a computer is very misleading.

Similarly, artificial neural networks simulated by computers achieve huge strides in AI, accomplishing things many said would always be impossible (e.g. art[2]). Also, we see many computer-like traits in the brain. But to express this by saying the brain is a computer is very misleading.

[1] http://lmgtfy.com/?q=the+universe+is+a+computer+simulation

[2] http://googleresearch.blogspot.ca/2015/06/inceptionism-going...

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#36

Post by DanWaterworth »

johansch wrote: post #10
return0 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In academic circles most of it comes from philosophers of mind, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

Who in their right mind would go to philosophers to get an understanding on how the human brain works at a physical level? Why not go to your priest instead? Same level of understanding.

Do you know what philosophy is? Do you know what science is?

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#37

Post by stevenmays »

avera wrote: post #32

My closest belief is near similar as mentioned in article, that brain, at some level has some "computational primitive", which resembles transistor functionality. But that is only one level. There can be additional layers of function, which can be influenced by sub-atomic entities, like elementary particles. We still don't know how deep this goes. This is, what most likely, provides depth of our consciousness. Our bi…

You should read the book On Intelligence by Jeff Hawkins. Pay attention to Chapter 6, "How the cortex works". Our "consciousness" is derived of the same stuff in all animals, we just have more cortical layers. We also have fuzzy algorithms which allow the brain to recognize patterns, and associate x with y.

http://www.amazon.com/On-Intelligence-Jeff-Hawkins/dp/080507...

I think to postulate that there's a yet undiscovered subatomic elementary particle that gives rise to consciousness is hogwash. "Consciousness" or awareness of self has been shown in other animals. Humans are distinct in their ability to couple self-awareness and toolmaking.

There is no "human energy" it's the same material as in all other animals, we just have more of it. The "human energy" could be classified as distinct fuzzy algorithms found in humans which aid pattern recognition.

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#38

Post by guard-of-terra »

themgt wrote: post #30
electrograv wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I think it's highly likely that the brain does not work in this manner whatsoever, and that in fact, in the translation of reality into 1s and 0s, you've lost far too much to properly "compute consciousness" You act as though the only datatype usable by computers is bool . That's ridiculous. Yes, computers are binary, but they can compute analog things just fine via floating or fixed point arithmetic to arbitra…

> To claim that the brain has a fundamental advantage over a Turing machine is to claim that there's some magical quantum (or otherwise) advantage in the brain's physical system that is un-simulate-able by a Turing machine. Again, please point to any research you know of indicating that the universe itself is fully Turing-computable.

Universe doesn't have to be, just neurons and other brain hardware.

Of course you can always see quantum phenomena affecting outcome, you just have to rule those out as neligible / much lower than noize threshold.

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#39

Post by mcphage »

coldtea wrote: post #17

I find the metaphor bad. My brain might work like a computer (computation et al), but the word computer evokes actual existing computers to a layman -- and my brain doesn't have a von neumann architecture, nor does it run something similar to our software. A neural network does computation of course, but we wouldn't call it a "computer" in the sense we use the word when dealing with, well, computers.

> and my brain doesn't have a von neumann architecture

"Computer" doesn't automatically equal "von neuman architecture".

> nor does it run something similar to our software

A lack of software-equivalent is a pretty good criticism, though.

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#40

Post by avera »

stevenmays wrote: post #37
avera wrote: post #32

My closest belief is near similar as mentioned in article, that brain, at some level has some "computational primitive", which resembles transistor functionality. But that is only one level. There can be additional layers of function, which can be influenced by sub-atomic entities, like elementary particles. We still don't know how deep this goes. This is, what most likely, provides depth of our consciousness. Our bi…

You should read the book On Intelligence by Jeff Hawkins. Pay attention to Chapter 6, "How the cortex works". Our "consciousness" is derived of the same stuff in all animals, we just have more cortical layers. We also have fuzzy algorithms which allow the brain to recognize patterns, and associate x with y. http://www.amazon.com/On-Intelligence-Jeff-Hawkins/dp/080507... I think to postulate that there's a yet undisco…

Not one elementary particle, but whole interaction of many of them.

Yes, animals have that same substance, but at lesser scale.

I make distinction between pure intellect, which computer can do fine, and other component, which I doubt that it can be accessed by computer without connecting silicon with biological material.

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