In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs • Hacker News Board

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#31

Post by danmaz74 » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 9:55 AM UTC

dagw wrote: post #30

danmaz74 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A simple enough solution is to require H-1B to be given only if the salary is X% above the industry average for the position. Then companies will only use them for people whose skills are actually difficult to find in the USA. Edit: wording

That would just lead to employers redefining which "industry" a particular position is in.

It's the whole company that operates in a given industry, not the particular position. If you're a software consulting company, you can't say you want a visa for a farming position...

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#32

Post by rbanffy » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 11:28 AM UTC

I am more than a bit shocked. Of course I assumed there would be some abuse of H1B visas, but I never imagined a company would give the workers being displaced proof of such abuse.

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#33

Post by rbanffy » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 11:34 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #14

learc83 wrote: post #3

H-1Bs are supposed to be used to fill jobs for which qualified Americans can't be found, but to get around this, Disney lays off workers and brings in a consultancy to take over. The consultancy employs the H-1B workers, not Disney. There are so many loopholes that it seems like the only solutions are to either create a well funded agency/department to oversee this, or to increase the price far enough that H-1Bs are…

The solution is for H1-B workers to auto-convert to a green card after 12 months. Period. The company has 12 months to complete a security check and has to fund it itself. Now, if the company really needs a worker brought in on an H1-B, they will be very happy and the H1-B queue will continuously clear itself. However, if all they want is an indentured servant, that will get quashed when the green card arrives. Every…

This would be an interesting solution, in special if at the end of the year the worker's transition into green card regime were conditioned to passing a test not unlike the one people applying for citizenship do and, if the worker does not pass, that spot cannot be used by the hiring company for a certain period. Requiring companies that "rent" H1B workers to American clients to actually invest and depend on their staff would probably make the business model of abusing work visas less profitable.

I see a lot of H1B workers that would not fit my notion of "skilled" except for vanishingly narrow fields (those you can master after a week of training).

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#34

Post by aNoob7000 » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 11:52 AM UTC

tsotha wrote: post #23

jahewson wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High wages are not enough. It takes time to train people. It can take years. Demand for experienced workers can't be satisfied with newly trained workers. Demand for skilled workers can very easily exceed their supply. A good example of this problem currently is nurses in the Bay Area. They are very well paid however there is still a shortage because there isn't enough teaching available. The teachers are of course e…

Twenty years? No way. Maybe five or ten years for something like nursing. Programmers can learn a language in a few months and become professionally proficient in two years or so. It's a lot closer to factory work than rocket science. Beyond that there are a bunch of 50+ year old guys with perfectly good skills who can't get jobs because they don't fit the common (erroneous) mental picture of a software developer. Th…

I'm not sure I would agree with you that programming is closer to factory work than rocket science. If programming were closer to factory work, Disney would have outsourced it 10-15 years ago to China. :)

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#35

Post by Zigurd » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 12:55 PM UTC

bsder wrote: post #14

learc83 wrote: post #3

H-1Bs are supposed to be used to fill jobs for which qualified Americans can't be found, but to get around this, Disney lays off workers and brings in a consultancy to take over. The consultancy employs the H-1B workers, not Disney. There are so many loopholes that it seems like the only solutions are to either create a well funded agency/department to oversee this, or to increase the price far enough that H-1Bs are…

The solution is for H1-B workers to auto-convert to a green card after 12 months. Period. The company has 12 months to complete a security check and has to fund it itself. Now, if the company really needs a worker brought in on an H1-B, they will be very happy and the H1-B queue will continuously clear itself. However, if all they want is an indentured servant, that will get quashed when the green card arrives. Every…

I would add to that that H1-Bs should be auctioned. That way, they are more likely to be used for high-value people coming to high-value R&D positions, not lo-wage seat-warmers for outsourcing shops.

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#36

Post by 6stringmerc » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 1:55 PM UTC

Let me get this straight - just as soon as the Department of Justice opens an investigation into the two major consultancies, Tata and Infosys, Disney decides to walk-back its plan of layoffs and replacement?

At the end of the day, I'm sure this will get swept under the rug and nobody in an Executive position - at any company (Tata, Infosys, Southern Cal Edison, Fossil, Disney, etc) - will actually face prosecution as an individual for manipulating / corrupting the system. However, there may be a job or two lost in shuffling around in order to sign a declaration that "We admit no wrongdoing and promise not to do it again" which ties up the investigation and puts a bow on it. Case closed.

Yet another metaphorical example of how the top tier of "business leaders" and decision makers pander to the top tier of the richest individuals ("investors") and have absolutely no disincentive to continually gutting the middle class and young generation of US Citizen workers who are ridiculously underemployed at this time.

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#37

Post by protomyth » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 2:21 PM UTC

saool wrote: post #12

protomyth wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want the company that receives the H1B to pay an addition tax on the salary that goes to unemployment. It needs to be something above an beyond what is payed for a citizen. After all, the H1B is supposed to have skills that the local workers don't and thus should be worth the extra money.

Unless you are tarring ships, you mean paid, not payed. As an H1-B holder you have to jump through many hoops, including constant attention to your command of the language. How does it feel to be judged? :) More importantly, why would you expect more from a foreign applicant that from a local? The point is there shouldn't be discrimination, in either way. H1-Bs are for specialty occupations that are in high demand to…

> Unless you are tarring ships, you mean paid, not payed.

> As an H1-B holder you have to jump through many hoops, including constant attention to your command of the language. How does it feel to be judged? :)

I never brought up language issues, that is your hang-up and a distraction from my point. Further, if you think everyone isn't judged, then you are just loopy.

> More importantly, why would you expect more from a foreign applicant that from a local?

Because that is the stated legal purpose of the H1B program. It says that H1B workers have skills that the local programmers do not.

> The point is there shouldn't be discrimination, in either way.

In personal dealings, here we are talking about a government's responsibility to its citizens.

> H1-Bs are for specialty occupations that are in high demand to begin with.

If Disney decides to fire all its IT workers and replace them with contracted H1Bs then I would say the law failed. The purpose of the law is to fill knowledge gaps not add labor to the market.

> Not sure what encourages you to be more catholic than the Pope.

The law states the purpose.

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#38

Post by jklein11 » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 2:23 PM UTC

danmaz74 wrote: post #31

dagw wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would just lead to employers redefining which "industry" a particular position is in.

It's the whole company that operates in a given industry, not the particular position. If you're a software consulting company, you can't say you want a visa for a farming position...

But you could create a "farming division" which then loans that employee to the software consulting division :)

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#39

Post by protomyth » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 2:26 PM UTC

Veratyr wrote: post #24

protomyth wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want the company that receives the H1B to pay an addition tax on the salary that goes to unemployment. It needs to be something above an beyond what is payed for a citizen. After all, the H1B is supposed to have skills that the local workers don't and thus should be worth the extra money.

> the H1B is supposed to have skills that the local workers don't Given that, wouldn't it make more sense for the extra money to go into education? How is contributing to unemployment going to get Americans more jobs? What about companies that need the skills but can't afford the more expensive workers? If I'm a small startup with a $200k budget for an expert but there are no citizens with the skills available (at al…

> Given that, wouldn't it make more sense for the extra money to go into education? How is contributing to unemployment going to get Americans more jobs?

Unemployment is the result and those budgets are stretched these days. In some place unemployment pays for classes.

> What about companies that need the skills but can't afford the more expensive workers? If I'm a small startup with a $200k budget for an expert but there are no citizens with the skills available (at all), paying $220k may not be an option, leaving me with either a loan or without the skills I need.

Why do you think its ok to not pay people the market rate just so you can benefit? Perhaps you need to compensate by equity or profit sharing? Why are workers less valuable then your startup?

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#40

Post by dagw » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 2:32 PM UTC

danmaz74 wrote: post #31

dagw wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would just lead to employers redefining which "industry" a particular position is in.

It's the whole company that operates in a given industry, not the particular position. If you're a software consulting company, you can't say you want a visa for a farming position...

Very few companies operate only within one industry