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Preferences for Trains vs. Buses

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Re: Preferences for Trains vs. Buses

#31

Post by louisphilippe »

mistermann wrote: post #29
louisphilippe wrote: post #19

There is a catch-22 with buses. Buses would be a lot better if cities had congestion pricing that could greatly reduce traffic delays. Buses would also be a lot better if there were more routes and better frequency. But people oppose congestion pricing because it would make commutes much more expensive for the poor. But if you actually had it, then the bus would be a much more feasible form of transportation, because…

> congestion pricing Is that a surcharge for being on certain roads at certain times of the day? It's a good idea if it could be undertaken in a somewhat fair way, are there any well thought out theories that you know of?

I don't have any particular recommended reading, but you can google the term and read articles about it.

Re: Preferences for Trains vs. Buses

#32

Post by kahirsch »

mistermann wrote: post #29
louisphilippe wrote: post #19

There is a catch-22 with buses. Buses would be a lot better if cities had congestion pricing that could greatly reduce traffic delays. Buses would also be a lot better if there were more routes and better frequency. But people oppose congestion pricing because it would make commutes much more expensive for the poor. But if you actually had it, then the bus would be a much more feasible form of transportation, because…

> congestion pricing Is that a surcharge for being on certain roads at certain times of the day? It's a good idea if it could be undertaken in a somewhat fair way, are there any well thought out theories that you know of?

London has been doing it since 2003.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge

Re: Preferences for Trains vs. Buses

#33

Post by cbd1984 »

baldfat wrote: post #13
robotcookies wrote: post #6

People do in general prefer trains over buses. This article is basically just saying that as you make the buses more train-like by giving them dedicated lanes and more reliability, people start to like buses more. Make them longer (articulated), faster, with dedicated lanes, and basically they start to become like a train with rubber tires. I think that is in fact, confirming people like trains better. Titles do matt…

Boses have traffic. People don't like traffic. Trains don't have traffic.

> Trains don't have traffic.

Trains have traffic. It's baked into their schedules, so it can never improve based on variations in usage.

Re: Preferences for Trains vs. Buses

#34

Post by jballanc »

louisphilippe wrote: post #19

There is a catch-22 with buses. Buses would be a lot better if cities had congestion pricing that could greatly reduce traffic delays. Buses would also be a lot better if there were more routes and better frequency. But people oppose congestion pricing because it would make commutes much more expensive for the poor. But if you actually had it, then the bus would be a much more feasible form of transportation, because…

There's a radical, yet likely very workable solution to this catch-22... A couple of years back when there was talk of introducing congestion pricing in Manhattan, there was a bridge toll increase around the same time. Someone figured out that if, instead of the usual $0.50 or $1 increase, the bridge tolls in NYC were increased to $20-25, then you could make all of the MTA lines (subway, LIRR, metro north) free of charge.

Of course, as you might expect, it never got anywhere...

Re: Preferences for Trains vs. Buses

#35

Post by gradstudent »

uhwhat wrote: post #18
baldfat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boses have traffic. People don't like traffic. Trains don't have traffic.

Trains also sometimes have lounge cars, dining cars and theaters. Buses confine you to a cramped seat and if you're lucky there's a tiny bathroom on board.

This. Also, bus travel can induce motion sickness.

Re: Preferences for Trains vs. Buses

#36

Post by prawn »

jballanc wrote: post #34
louisphilippe wrote: post #19

There is a catch-22 with buses. Buses would be a lot better if cities had congestion pricing that could greatly reduce traffic delays. Buses would also be a lot better if there were more routes and better frequency. But people oppose congestion pricing because it would make commutes much more expensive for the poor. But if you actually had it, then the bus would be a much more feasible form of transportation, because…

There's a radical, yet likely very workable solution to this catch-22... A couple of years back when there was talk of introducing congestion pricing in Manhattan, there was a bridge toll increase around the same time. Someone figured out that if, instead of the usual $0.50 or $1 increase, the bridge tolls in NYC were increased to $20-25, then you could make all of the MTA lines (subway, LIRR, metro north) free of ch…

There is a bridge over to Staten Island (from the South, I think?) that costs $14. It's free in the reverse direction, AFAIK. Drove it the other day as a tourist in the area and thought "This would suck if I had to commute this every day!"

Presumably the cost is there to encourage everyone to take public transport instead.

Re: Preferences for Trains vs. Buses

#37

Post by lmm »

cbd1984 wrote: post #33
baldfat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boses have traffic. People don't like traffic. Trains don't have traffic.

> Trains don't have traffic. Trains have traffic. It's baked into their schedules, so it can never improve based on variations in usage.

Trains reliably run to timetable. Buses don't.

Re: Preferences for Trains vs. Buses

#38

Post by busessuck »

Part of the preference for trains is that the sunk investment in right-of-way is a strong disincentive to move or discontinue service. This allows people to feel confident that they can depend on the service to stay there, and invest in the areas around these transit corridors.

Anecdote: I lived in Seattle for 10 years without a car. (A city with surprisingly high transit ridership considering the lack of any sort of rail network, notwithstanding toy trolleys and the lone light-rail line from downtown to the airport.) More than once I moved apartments due to bus routes I relied upon being discontinued or rendered unreliable by drastic service cuts (e.g. instead of all-day service, you now have 4 trips per weekday, peak direction only, and if you miss them you're either making two transfers or walking 2 miles to the nearest direct all-day service. Weekend service? hahaha.)

This doesn't (often) happen with rail, heavy or light. Being unable to depend on bus service in any particular corridor to last more then a year or two without realignment or service cuts made it hard to justify settling down. If I wanted to buy a car and drive everywhere, why pay the premium to live in the city in the first place? In the end, I moved back to a real city where I could depend on the metro.

Re: Preferences for Trains vs. Buses

#39

Post by keithpeter »

robotcookies wrote: post #6

People do in general prefer trains over buses. This article is basically just saying that as you make the buses more train-like by giving them dedicated lanes and more reliability, people start to like buses more. Make them longer (articulated), faster, with dedicated lanes, and basically they start to become like a train with rubber tires. I think that is in fact, confirming people like trains better. Titles do matt…

UK: Pop your buses on tracks set in the bus lanes and can have the train wheels! We used to call them trams. A tram service often referred to as 'the metro' these days to make them sound modern because we spent loads of money in the middle of the 20th century ripping up the tram lines in many of our larger cities.

http://www.metrolink.co.uk/

and the route map at

http://www.metrolink.co.uk/stationinfo/Documents/Route_map.p...

Also Sheffield, Leeds and a single route in Birmingham.

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