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Ordos, China: The World’s Largest Ghost City (2014)

thebohemianblog.com

31–40 of 54 posts

Re: Ordos, China: The World’s Largest Ghost City (2014)

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody wants to take a loss on real estate in China, so they'll just wait until the market is better or they get compensated by the government when they eventually "redevelop" the land (those apartments only have an effective 10-20 year lifespan given quality of current construction methods). They don't take out big loans to buy these places, so there is no liquidity pressure. This is good and bad, no housing market…

"those apartments only have an effective 10-20 year lifespan" Economical or political crisis hits, and they'll have to live in those apartments for 50+ years. We've been there already. How do you build an apartment block these days anyway so it just lasts 20 years? With modern materials it's a bit unexpected. It's a royally crappy idea anyway. Imagine selling one of those apartments to a person aged 40, who then prom…

> How do you build an apartment block these days anyway so it just lasts 20 years? With modern materials it's a bit unexpected.

My rented apartment in central Beijing is about 10 years old, considered fairly high end (we pay 7500 RMB/month for a one bedroom), and is already showing signs of deterioration (and our complex is considered "good" and well managed compared to the other ones in our fairly middle class Sanyuan Qiao area). It is a combination of poor construction techniques + poor maintenance + poor planning. The government and development companies "built to build" with little focus on the long term.

They are already tearing down developments made 15, 10, or 5 years ago, or even before they are finished* for "re-development."

* http://www.zerohedge.com/article/china-proudly-demolishing-b...

Re: Ordos, China: The World’s Largest Ghost City (2014)

#32
post #9

isn't all this just a matter of time? https://www.bullionstar.com/blogs/koos-jansen/guest-post-5-c... http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/04/21/the-myth-of...

And it's just a matter of time yet that these cities become the equivalent of America's hated suburbs. Cities like Greenbelt, MD, and Levittown, NY - planned large communities where everyone can enjoy a picket fence and a driveway. Soon, perhaps, china, too, will have a director that makes a film about the ennui of living in a planned community prominently featuring as a main character a floating plastic bag.

Re: Ordos, China: The World’s Largest Ghost City (2014)

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably the most relevant comment in the thread. These ghost cities start that way, but they all end up being populated, and as soon as the flood gates open, they fill up fast. It just takes certain factors reaching critical mass to push them from the 'No one is living there' to 'Everyone is moving in and filling the entire place up' Edit: Looks like it's already begun in Ordos as well. http://tmagazine.blog…

Sound like China is planning ahead. Contrast this with the American problem of nothing new being built: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-07/here-s-how...

That sounds fine, if it all works out as planned.

China is about to become the most indebted nation. At the rapid pace they're accumulating debt, that should happen within the next few years. They've spent wildly to keep the building spree going; even now their real estate market is crashing, it has been falling for a year.

It begs a simple question: how many more people can China transition out of old China's poverty, and into the new China's middle class, before they run out of the ability to accumulate more debt to keep it all going (global consumers are tapped out, which has left China's manufacturing boom dead in the water, with their PMI contracting during a supposed non-recessionary period).

I fail to see how thinking ahead equates to taking on tens of trillions in new debt to fake economic growth. That sounds like they're baking up an economic recipe for future stagnation.

Re: Ordos, China: The World’s Largest Ghost City (2014)

#34
post #8

"The man led us through a courtyard, around the back of the school buildings, and suddenly there it was: the yard opened up into a wide, grassy playing field, flanked on one side by raised seating. On the edge of the grass pitch – regularly mowed, yet never used – we were pointed towards a series of bronze statues. The figures showed children in traditional Chinese dress, frozen in play as the pink silk scarves tied…

Likely a consortium of the developers who have 5% occupancy rates and want to sell (look up 'rent a foreigner' for another strange way developers try to sell property) and local government yeah.

Re: Ordos, China: The World’s Largest Ghost City (2014)

#35
post #16

"Typical housing prices in Kangbashi have fallen from $1,100 to $470 per square foot, over the last five years alone." Why are the prices so high? Obviously nobody wants to pay $500k - $1 million for a 1,000 sqft. apartment in a Chinese ghost town.

> Why are the prices so high?

Prices skyrocketed due to housing as an investment. It's a very peculiar thing but basically it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Houses go from $100k to $120k in two years? Alright well let's buy a house as an investment on a shitty salary, it's free money.

Until everyone said that, and the rate of prices going up kept increasing, and kept reinforcing the investment opportunity myth.

Basic bubble, basically. And it was of course fueled by insane growth in wages.

I mean just look at these graphs for wage growth: http://online.wsj.com/media/WAGES.jpg http://ase.tufts.edu/gdae/images/Vernengo_AvgrealwagesChina....

It's insane. You basically had 20-30 years of 15% growth annually. 20 years of that is 16x. 30 years is 66x. It wasn't quite 15%, but probably 10-11% on average the past 30 years. That means housing prices will naturally rise, and when they naturally rise for decades and there's seemingly free money if you invest in a home, it's easy for an investment bubble to arise that even outpaces wage growth.

Then add to that two more elements: gigantic internal migration (China has internal passports, it's very interesting. But it doesn't stop huge urbanisation).

How big? Well 25 years ago urbanisation was about 25%. Today it's about 55%.

Then add to that population growth of 200 million extra people. What do you get? No joke, half a billion extra people living in cities compared to just 25 years ago, in China. That's insane. That's literally the entirety of North America (more than 20 countries), or all of South America times 1.5, or all of Europe and then some, living in cities, many of them existing ones.

And that's how you get homes worth $200 - 400k, for Chinese who have a $7k GDP per capita, and middle class wages deviating from that only slightly higher.

Partially it's alright. China will still urbanise, it will have to demolish and rebuild many buildings, and its population will add another 100m people. But on the other hand, it's an extremely worrying asset bubble we don't talk about enough. People forget that China was, though far from alone, in some ways quite instrumental in dampening the effects of the economic crisis. One can worry what happens if an economic crisis arises from China itself, as asset prices in some areas are just absolutely batshit insane and will have to be written off at some point, which collapses the house of cards. (selling overpriced property for nothing, which already happens but is inevitable on a larger scale, reduces all property values, who are overpriced too, escalating a major selloff that'll leave tons of debt in its wake. Familiar story of course.)

Re: Ordos, China: The World’s Largest Ghost City (2014)

#36

i don't understand the fascination with these ghost cities. they're just giant failed businesses. imagine if they built vegas and nobody came. that's it, in a nutshell. it's not that weird.

> imagine if they built vegas and nobody came. that's it, in a nutshell. it's not that weird.

That's fucking weird... I wonder on what scale it becomes weird to you. Imagine we built 100s of cities on another planet and just left it empty...

I do appreciate, if this is the point you want to make, that literally every newspaper, tv station, radio show, photographer etc has done a piece on Ordos. I've read the same article a million times now and it's totally uninteresting. But that's a function of overreporting, it's still inherently interesting to me.

Re: Ordos, China: The World’s Largest Ghost City (2014)

#37
post #9

isn't all this just a matter of time? https://www.bullionstar.com/blogs/koos-jansen/guest-post-5-c... http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/04/21/the-myth-of...

In China, even part of real cities are ghost-like. I have a friend who has family in China, and each of their relatives have one or more empty apartments there. They do this because it is one of the few investments Chinese are allowed to make, and they don't need to pay property taxes. If you consider this, ghost cities are not even the biggest problem with Chinese real estate.

I see this as a pyramid scheme. The local municipalities can get away with not charging taxes because so many new construction is going on. But a few years from now when construction has slowed down, they will need money for schools, hospitals, etc. By that time they will have to charge taxes and it will become a losing proposition to maintain empty properties.

Re: Ordos, China: The World’s Largest Ghost City (2014)

#38

i don't understand the fascination with these ghost cities. they're just giant failed businesses. imagine if they built vegas and nobody came. that's it, in a nutshell. it's not that weird.

I've definitely looked at some of the obviously failed, mid-construction casinos in Vegas that crop up from time to time with fascination

Re: Ordos, China: The World’s Largest Ghost City (2014)

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sound like China is planning ahead. Contrast this with the American problem of nothing new being built: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-07/here-s-how...

That sounds fine, if it all works out as planned. China is about to become the most indebted nation. At the rapid pace they're accumulating debt, that should happen within the next few years. They've spent wildly to keep the building spree going; even now their real estate market is crashing, it has been falling for a year. It begs a simple question: how many more people can China transition out of old China's povert…

Excellent comment. China overdid their stimulus package in 2008 because of the need to keep the jobs coming. If would have been much better for them if they had used 2008 to slow the growth rhythm to something sustainable (4 to 5%). I think they are now headed to a very difficult transition, probably Japanese-style, because of so much debt.

Re: Ordos, China: The World’s Largest Ghost City (2014)

#40
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"those apartments only have an effective 10-20 year lifespan" Economical or political crisis hits, and they'll have to live in those apartments for 50+ years. We've been there already. How do you build an apartment block these days anyway so it just lasts 20 years? With modern materials it's a bit unexpected. It's a royally crappy idea anyway. Imagine selling one of those apartments to a person aged 40, who then prom…

"Modern materials" doesn't necessarily mean the most durable or well-suited to the task. It typically means cheap to produce (therefore readily available) and visually... acceptable.

The concrete China uses is pretty cheap actually, and the labor used to put it together is fairly unskilled. They have to build much thicker as a result, which leads to higher maintenance costs (which isn't done) and much quicker degradation.
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