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Every freelancer starts out undervaluing their work

kenwestgaard.com

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Re: Every freelancer starts out undervaluing their work

#31

Post by Swizec »

lfowles wrote: post #29
Swizec wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some days I produce massive amounts of value, while others I barely get anything valuable done. I'd like a work place that would encourage me to go home and enjoy myself on the bad days and stay as long as I want on the good days, instead of expecting a regular 40 hour work week every week (I have flex, but on average...). In the words of Stephen King, "Amateurs sit and wait for inspiration, the rest of us just get…

On the other hand, there's been a lot of value for me clearing the calendar on weekends and just playing videogames for 48 hours. Really sets priorities straight and freshens me up for the upcoming week. This is best used when I can't even make the effort to do "bad work". I can see where he's coming from.

It's a fine line. Sometimes the best thing to do is to walk away and leave the problem for another day. Other times you're just making excuses because you don't know how to solve a problem.

Learning which is which comes from experience I would assume.

Re: Every freelancer starts out undervaluing their work

#32

Post by maratd »

learc83 wrote: post #25
maratd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't get why people are so keen on the per-hour model. How many years have you been doing this? It doesn't sound like you've been at this for too long. > I've negotiated fixed-price deals where I'm quite certain I can get the job done in x number of weeks This works fine for a client who wants a very concrete x, y, or z. There's a problem with this sort of client. They only want x, y, or z and after you give it…

I have a question. Where did you find these middlemen you were talking about? > I know they're out there because I used to do that. It's exhausting. You have to constantly keep marketing yourself, keep working of course, and wear a bunch of hats at the same time. That's me right now. Any tips on making the switch?

I like having my foot in both doors. I work some of my time with an agency and the rest with my own clients. This gives me the stability/constancy I want, but also allows me to pursue my own clients (and to charge them a ton more, knowing I have the agency to fall back on, if I need to).

> Any tips on making the switch?

Yeah, find an outfit that's a good fit. Make sure they're flexible, understand the industry, and that there's no personality conflicts. You should have a very easy, comfortable relationship.

> Where did you find these middlemen you were talking about?

They're all over the place, looking for you. You just need to be found or you can find them. There's a ton of them. Probably quite a few on this thread. Make yourself easy to contact. You'll bump into them eventually or you can actively look for them by researching some larger projects in your niche. Larger projects require multiple people and that brings the agencies out, since they're able to bring multiple people onto a project pretty quickly and effectively.

Re: Every freelancer starts out undervaluing their work

#33

Post by mcintyre1994 »

tertius wrote: post #28
sanderjd wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why the word "underpriced" always seems wrong to me in this context. Your price at the beginning has to be lower because your profile is lower, which means you have a weaker negotiating position. "Underpriced" only becomes the right word if your rates aren't rising in conjunction with your profile, which does happen for sure, but isn't the case right at the beginning.

"Your price at the beginning has to be lower because your profile is lower" This is the sentiment that makes you justify charging too little.

So what is the alternative? If you don't have any cheap clients (cheap labour) or portfolio (free labour), how do you convince clients what you're worth?

Re: Every freelancer starts out undervaluing their work

#34

Post by mcintyre1994 »

lordnacho wrote: post #21

I don't get why people are so keen on the per-hour model. This puts a lot of pressure on you to be fully productive and count hours like a lawyer. It also makes you think you're losing money when you're not billing, and the customer likewise feels the time/money pressure. I've negotiated fixed-price deals where I'm quite certain I can get the job done in x number of weeks, based on having done something similar befor…

In Patrick (Patio11)'s blog with his consultancy rates [0] he switched very early from hourly payments to weekly - that seems like a really nice tradeoff. You're not counting hours, if the scope changes you can adjust pretty fluidly, and you're not having to go chasing gigs all the time.

[0] http://www.kalzumeus.com/2015/05/01/talking-about-money/ If you haven't read this, it's fantastic

Re: Every freelancer starts out undervaluing their work

#36

Post by zerr »

One thing to remember - those who charge 30K per week (e.g. patio11) do so by doing the work they don't enjoy, and this would be even more non-enjoyable for more hardcore engineers here.

We love making money with programming, not by marketing/SEO/etc...

So the most interesting for us is how to make 30K/week by only pure engineering.

Re: Every freelancer starts out undervaluing their work

#37

Post by gk1 »

zerr wrote: post #36

One thing to remember - those who charge 30K per week (e.g. patio11) do so by doing the work they don't enjoy, and this would be even more non-enjoyable for more hardcore engineers here. We love making money with programming, not by marketing/SEO/etc... So the most interesting for us is how to make 30K/week by only pure engineering.

> ..so by doing the work they don't enjoy

Hey, speak for yourself. :) I happen to enjoy it very much, and that's what makes my consulting work very rewarding.

Re: Every freelancer starts out undervaluing their work

#38

Post by pbowyer »

maratd wrote: post #23
lordnacho wrote: post #21

I don't get why people are so keen on the per-hour model. This puts a lot of pressure on you to be fully productive and count hours like a lawyer. It also makes you think you're losing money when you're not billing, and the customer likewise feels the time/money pressure. I've negotiated fixed-price deals where I'm quite certain I can get the job done in x number of weeks, based on having done something similar befor…

> I don't get why people are so keen on the per-hour model. How many years have you been doing this? It doesn't sound like you've been at this for too long. > I've negotiated fixed-price deals where I'm quite certain I can get the job done in x number of weeks This works fine for a client who wants a very concrete x, y, or z. There's a problem with this sort of client. They only want x, y, or z and after you give it…

> These clients are professionals. They know the industry. They're not really clients, they're middle men. They're agencies, marketing guys, whatever. They have a constant stream of work. They know it. And they know the best way to maximize their profit is to pay you by the hour. They will only pay you by the hour. They will laugh if you suggest anything else.

My experience of working for agencies is they want to pay a fixed price and will laugh you out of the agency at the idea of paying hourly. They don't want risk; they want you to take the risk for their project specification ('cause they've already quoted the client, so you'd better cost less than they quoted...)

What kind of middle men are these who pay per hour?

Or are you talking about contracting, not freelancing?

Re: Every freelancer starts out undervaluing their work

#39

Post by jayshahtx »

sanderjd wrote: post #27
jayshahtx wrote: post #5

> pass on the cheap, low-value projects. Hold out for the clients that have budgets and value your time. Every second you spend with clients that don’t have money and don’t value your time is another second you have wasted. I just finished my first 8 months of consulting work and while this is true, it is so difficult to actualize. When we had zero projects, I would take any meetings I could get. A part of me would h…

This is why the word "underpriced" always seems wrong to me in this context. Your price at the beginning has to be lower because your profile is lower, which means you have a weaker negotiating position. "Underpriced" only becomes the right word if your rates aren't rising in conjunction with your profile, which does happen for sure, but isn't the case right at the beginning.

I agree with you, but when we are discussing "price", we are not discussing it as a function of profile. We are discussing it as a function of raw skill. If two people (one experienced and one in-experienced) were asked for a proposal on the same specs, the experienced one would demand a much higher rate, even if the final output would be the exact same. Using the word "underpriced" from the lens of competency makes sense. Your ability to gain trust/respect from a client? Different story..

Re: Every freelancer starts out undervaluing their work

#40

Post by zerr »

gk1 wrote: post #37
zerr wrote: post #36

One thing to remember - those who charge 30K per week (e.g. patio11) do so by doing the work they don't enjoy, and this would be even more non-enjoyable for more hardcore engineers here. We love making money with programming, not by marketing/SEO/etc... So the most interesting for us is how to make 30K/week by only pure engineering.

> ..so by doing the work they don't enjoy Hey, speak for yourself. :) I happen to enjoy it very much, and that's what makes my consulting work very rewarding.

Yes, I generalized my thoughts and what patio11 said about quitting consulting :)
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