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Dropbox moves to Ireland for all customers outside of North America

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Re: Dropbox moves to Ireland for all customers outside of North America

#31
post #9
post #2

Doesn't say it moves the data, just that the legal entity providing service is the Irish subsidiary.

In terms of alternatives, AWS WorkDocs provides data storage in Ireland (and the US, Singapore and Australia).

But since Amazon has offices in the USA, the NSA considers all AWS hosted data in whatever country the Amazon operated data center is located in, to be under US jurisdiction.

I had a client who pulled all their (encrypted) data off the Ninefold cloud (Ninefold were at the time a fully Australian owned and hosted company) when they leased data center space and opened an office in CA – due to data sovereignty concerns.

Re: Dropbox moves to Ireland for all customers outside of North America

#32
post #8

I wonder how this will affect speed and latiency if you're on the other side of the world (like NZ and Australia).

Apart from that point that so far as I can tell, this is purely about what country code is used in a billing database record and it's tax implications, rather than any large scale network reconfiguration changes - but I doubt many people have a use case where the difference between 50ms or 300ms latency for Dropbox would make any difference at all. For most people I'm pretty sure the speed of "the last mile" is the fundamental limiting factor for their bandwidth.

Re: Dropbox moves to Ireland for all customers outside of North America

#34
post #31
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of alternatives, AWS WorkDocs provides data storage in Ireland (and the US, Singapore and Australia).

But since Amazon has offices in the USA, the NSA considers all AWS hosted data in whatever country the Amazon operated data center is located in, to be under US jurisdiction. I had a client who pulled all their (encrypted) data off the Ninefold cloud (Ninefold were at the time a fully Australian owned and hosted company) when they leased data center space and opened an office in CA – due to data sovereignty concerns.

Isn't Dropbox also entirely aws-hosted?

Re: Dropbox moves to Ireland for all customers outside of North America

#35

Title is wrong, this is just a tax minimization move and has nothing to do with data housing.

Ireland often gets a lot of flak from the US and the EU about being a "tax haven" with similarities drawn to the Isle of Man or the Cayman Islands.

Irelands corporation tax rate is 12.5%, in the US the rate is often cited as 30% and similarly with France and Germany. However the "effective" corporate tax rate is actually lower than Irelands in many cases because there are many write offs and loop holes that mean companies rarely pay 30% and much closer to 8%. These writes offs and loop holes aren't really as available in Ireland and subsequently mean Irelands tax scheme is more transparent in the sense the perceived value is closer to the actual value.

It's just a competitive and transparent tax policy that has been in place since 1960's. A lot of people here and in the media will use this as evidence that Ireland is a tax haven. I'll concede measures like the Double Irish were a step too far -- a 12.5% rate isn't. If Dropbox really wanted to I'm sure they could find plenty of write offs in the UK like Starbucks did. There might be other factors influencing this decision too though e.g. avoiding the UK because a Brexit is on the table. Ireland has a better climate for data centres compared to say the Cayman Islands.

Re: Dropbox moves to Ireland for all customers outside of North America

#37
post #28
post #5

This post[0] in the Dropbox forum points out that Dropbox is suspected of the intention to minimize tax payable. [0]: https://www.dropboxforum.com/hc/communities/public/questions...

Remember "tax minimization" is legal, prudent, and a fundamental duty of company officers in these times of "maximise shareholder value" being the primary and legally mandated goal of a corporation. "Tax evasion" is crossing over a not very well defined and continually shifting line - and is illegal. At the moment, at least from where I see the world here in Australia, all the "global tech giants" (and mining/resourc…

You're exactly right. While we look at this stuff as despicable, because it really is, we can't blame the companies. Except ... we can, right? They're the ones who have manipulated the tax codes, right? They're practically writing the laws, right? Ultimately though, the politicians are the ones who are passing the laws. They're the ones who are being bribed, excuse me, funded, by corporations and the wealthy. To blame corporations for taking every advantage of the system, to manipulate it in whatever way possible, is silly. Capitalism rewards innovation. It rewards plugging the holes that cost money (and taxes can be quite a big hole). These can be great benefits to everyone to some extent, but they also eventually lead to buying out competitors which reduces competition, which can result in big, lazy companies who'd rather legislate than innovate - I'm looking at you, Cable Company and Telephone Company, or the Media conglomerates. That's what we have the world over.

Maybe it's just me, but for me, the problem is our political system - it's not designed to withstand these corrupting forces. Some countries deal with it slightly better, but barely just.

I like competitive capitalism. I like democracy, and even the idea of a representative democracy. But they don't play well together when you have the capitalists ultimately deciding who gets to represent the people, and then those representatives bending in every which way to make things easier for their funders. When you have a system that rewards bribery, or has in its place a revolving door between legislators and business, you're going to have these effects. The solution to this I think is really rather simple, but I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader.

Re: Dropbox moves to Ireland for all customers outside of North America

#38
Great. Since there is no international tax-agreement between Ireland and my country, now my startup company has to start paying 7% VAT for Dropbox in their place. (In addition to 7% VAT we already pay for Facebook ads and Adobe Creative Cloud, which recently moved to Ireland too)

Gee, if only Microsoft OneDrive would have a decent Linux client.

Re: Dropbox moves to Ireland for all customers outside of North America

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And completely unreasonable not to suspect that the NSA can freely acquire those keys.

Only if they already have illicit access to the systems in question. In which case, considering Dropbox doesn't actually encrypt data at rest, it'd be much easier to get the data at the endpoints than in transit.

Data is indeed encrypted on the storage systems (but not on client machines, if that's what you meant).
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