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Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy

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Re: Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy

#31
post #22

I kinda have mixed feelings about it (and I plan to move out even further, since my job allows remoting.) The thing is, money "lost" are spend on wages for people building roads, infrastructure, houses, etc. And this type of work more often done by local workforce, not some international company with bank accounts in caymans. So... how exactly money are "lost"? Lost by whom exactly? People found jobs, which otherwise…

Your view is the broken window fallacy. [1]

All the man-hours and natural resources spent building all those roads and paying for all that gas to move around on them could have instead gone to expanding production.

For instance, funding new companies, scientific research, and so on.

That is the point of the article.

Of course, the article is fallacious in that expanding production is not inherently better than consumption, so consumption is not necessarily "wasteful."

If people had preferred to live in an apartment and invest their money, they would have. Other things being equal, suburban sprawl reflects peoples' economic preferences. People are willing to pay for all the resources to make suburban sprawl possible.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

edit: though living in an apartment will be more expensive, so that wasn't a great example.

Re: Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy

#32

An individual with the choice of living in the city or in suburbia is faced with a conundrum. Although you would think that by living in the city the individual will save money by expending significantly less natural resources and dramatically lowering his carbon footprint, it ironically costs him less money to do the exact opposite by living in the suburbs. This is because if the individual chooses to live in the ci…

Only short-term. Once you factor in gas, ownership of multiple cars, etc it's cheaper to live in the city. Doubly so if your time isn't worthless (time sitting in traffic is working for free)

As an American who prefers rural living, I prefer not living in a city because my time is valuable. I like being able to go from A to B at 60 miles and hour and not worry about parking. I don't like waiting for busses or subways.

I think suburban living is generally going to be less time-consuming than urban living unless you're doing something dumb, like communting into Los Angles or Washington, D.C.

Re: Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy

#33

An individual with the choice of living in the city or in suburbia is faced with a conundrum. Although you would think that by living in the city the individual will save money by expending significantly less natural resources and dramatically lowering his carbon footprint, it ironically costs him less money to do the exact opposite by living in the suburbs. This is because if the individual chooses to live in the ci…

Unlikely we'll run out of oil in the foreseeable future.

Re: Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy

#34
post #6

I'm from Glasgow, Scotland myself and I've never been to US but I've done a fair amount of research. Our societies differ a lot if it goes to moving around. I can normally walk around the whole town(600k people). I take the public transportation when I'm lazy. I am always amazed when I hear from my US friends "you have to have a car otherwise you can't get anywhere" or "there are no sidewalks". Wow. In Europe most of…

It's not necessarily that there are no sidewalks. Walking through retail/commercial-zoned suburbia can be mind-numbingly boring.

Straight roads, boring 'architecture', giant parking lots between the sidewalk and the retail buildings.

Compare Atherton, UK - nice, homely "typical UK" town with busy high-street.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.523623,-2.491372,3a,75y,92.9...

Now, San Jose, CA, USA suburbia: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.323192,-121.972195,3a,75y,25...

Boring. Thankfully planners seem to have recognized this, and now the trend is to build high-density housing, and right out to the street.

James Howard Kunstler has a FANTASTIC Ted talk about this subject, which cracks me up every time. Highly recommended:

http://www.ted.com/talks/james_howard_kunstler_dissects_subu...

Re: Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy

#35
post #14

Suburbs cannot compete with cities for fresh talent. Most businesses I know are opening city offices to Broaden their candidat pool. Its worth noting that sprawl legends like the Dc Metro area, San Fran and Boston lead the nation in job openings. Suburbs are demographically and geographically disadvantaged.

No doubt true, but surprising. I'd rather bag groceries somewhere else than be a programmer in Boston or DC.

Re: Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy

#36
post #6

I'm from Glasgow, Scotland myself and I've never been to US but I've done a fair amount of research. Our societies differ a lot if it goes to moving around. I can normally walk around the whole town(600k people). I take the public transportation when I'm lazy. I am always amazed when I hear from my US friends "you have to have a car otherwise you can't get anywhere" or "there are no sidewalks". Wow. In Europe most of…

It's not necessarily that there are no sidewalks. Walking through retail/commercial-zoned suburbia can be mind-numbingly boring. Straight roads, boring 'architecture', giant parking lots between the sidewalk and the retail buildings. Compare Atherton, UK - nice, homely "typical UK" town with busy high-street. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.523623,-2.491372,3a,75y,92.9... Now, San Jose, CA, USA suburbia: https://www.…

I remember the first time I came to San Jose how surprised I was. This was the Silicon Valley of lore, and it basically looked like every other boring, nondescript suburb in America.

Re: Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy

#37
post #35
post #14

Suburbs cannot compete with cities for fresh talent. Most businesses I know are opening city offices to Broaden their candidat pool. Its worth noting that sprawl legends like the Dc Metro area, San Fran and Boston lead the nation in job openings. Suburbs are demographically and geographically disadvantaged.

No doubt true, but surprising. I'd rather bag groceries somewhere else than be a programmer in Boston or DC.

Being a programmer in NYC, I love it and wouldn't trade living anywhere else at the moment. I guess to each their own.

Re: Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy

#38
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a product of urban design, not a cause or a premise. Rich New York bankers don't drive cars.

>Rich New York bankers don't drive cars. But do they take public transportation? Or do they use a car service? They're paying to avoid public transportation exactly like the OP said.

Yes?

John Paulson, architect of the largest trade in Wall Street history, takes public transit to work every day.

Re: Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy

#39
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No doubt true, but surprising. I'd rather bag groceries somewhere else than be a programmer in Boston or DC.

Being a programmer in NYC, I love it and wouldn't trade living anywhere else at the moment. I guess to each their own.

Staten Island is the new Silicon Valley.

Re: Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy

#40
post #13

This is not something I see in a city like Chicago. Even with a thinning population in the city proper, there are a wide variety of jobs reaching out from the city to the suburbs and more than adequate transportation with plenty of "walkable" neighborhoods. This is an interesting idea to explore, and I definitely have seen some more sprawling areas in this country (L.A., San Jose), but New York and Chicago don't fit…

I disagree. If you live in, say Westmont or Downer's Grove and want to get to O'Hare or Midway by public transport, you might as well give up before you start. It's a minimum two hour train journey that involves going all the way to Union station and then to the airport.

It's not just the airports. My wife works at ANL. There are exactly two buses a day which go from our place to the lab. And this is after a ten minute walk. If you miss those, you either have to drive or take a taxi. There are no other options whatsoever.

Maybe public transport works well in the city, but good luck surviving in the suburbs without a car.

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