Perhaps your assumptions are wrong? Not everything should be measured against a monetary value standard.
Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it
31–40 of 83 posts
Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it
#32Growing up in the late 20th century, I cannot imagine not having gone to university. Without it, I'd still live in a small village and probably doing some menial work in a factory or on a farm. I would not have had the experience of focussing on a subject for five years straight. I would not have had the experience of being able to reflect on society and my role in it. I would not have had the experience of discoveri…
I never went to HS or college. It's pretty easy to learn if you're motivated and have an internet connection. I have a high-paying career that I made for myself. Of course, whenever I bring this up people write me off as some kind of genius (I'm not) or some kind of exception. I'm really not. Yes, statistics show that going to college is correlated with more financial success than those who do not attend college. I s…
I'm a high school student in the UK in the process of applying to university courses beginning September this year. I haven't really put much thought into why I'm applying to universities as opposed to doing something else. It just seems like the done thing.
I consider myself fairly knowledgeable when it comes to programming and software design, but if I were to be thrust into a working environment right now I'm sure I'd be woefully unprepared. My thought has always been that these kinds of 'working' skills are what you get at university, but really I have no idea.
Ultimately I quite dislike the world of assignments and exams, and entering into university I assume will just be a continuation of this. Your comment has really made me start considering my choices more carefully. This is probably the first time I've even considered going straight into a job in fact.
Do you have anything to add? Thoughts or advice?
Edit: should clarify that I did realise there were options other than uni but never considered them. Also I realise experience is a key part of 'learning how to work', but even with that in mind I feel like there would be a huge barrier to overcome if I chose to take a job now.
Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it
#33Worth a watch: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/view/ Interviews an ex rocker, coke addict, making $$$ starting for profit schools, who's latest endeavor (Hope University or some such nonsense) milks tuition grants from ex-cons and the homeless. University of Phoenixes are strategically located near freeway exits.
This is the real strategy. Phoenix looks at what the federal government needs and offers classes in those subjects. Students get federal loans to pay for it all. Money is funneled straight from US govt to Phoenix, with students on the hook for it.
Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
I grew up in an African village of 200, miles from anywhere and anything. I finished school but didn't go to university. Armed with that and my interest in computers I've managed to land jobs at both Microsoft and Nokia. As ever, every example has a counter-example. I don't know which approach is right, but crazy grateful I didn't go through the American system. The cost strikes me as crippling.
In most other Western countries the universities are pretty much the same as American ones, just without the crippling costs. U of T charges $10K USD annually for tuition, for an undergrad science degree, for a Canadian. McGill charges Quebec residents a stunning $2,000 a year for a science degree. There is no significant difference between U of T or McGill and any American university you care to name. Student costs…
> In most other Western countries the universities are pretty much the same as American ones, just without the crippling costs.
The sticker price is misleading though. There are scholarships for merit and grants for need. Work study (often in makework jobs with ample downtime for studying) for almost anyone who seeks them out.
Even after that, employers in competitive fields offer loan repayment as a starting bonus, or doled out over time for retention. Work in public service makes some eligible for loan forgiveness.
Even without that, the loan companies have provisions for indefinite deferment during unemployment and automatic forbearance during enrollment in any other academic program. Income based repayment is a standard option. Essentially, if you wanted to break the system, you could pay full price for a ridiculously priced private school degree then probably go work at starbucks and send them $20 a month for a while, then go take four years off to study pottery at a community college to pay $0 a month while the fed pays all your interest.
Oh, then even after that, even if you are actually personally paying interest on a loan, historically the rates have been competitive (though that flipped a few years back), and there are tax credits for education spending, and deductions that kick in even when you're just repaying school loans.
The most surprising feature of the American system to me is not the price, but how hard it works to camouflage all its progressive and meritocratic features.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/college-is-chea...
Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
In most other Western countries the universities are pretty much the same as American ones, just without the crippling costs. U of T charges $10K USD annually for tuition, for an undergrad science degree, for a Canadian. McGill charges Quebec residents a stunning $2,000 a year for a science degree. There is no significant difference between U of T or McGill and any American university you care to name. Student costs…
> In most other Western countries the universities are pretty much the same as American ones, just without the crippling costs. The sticker price is misleading though. There are scholarships for merit and grants for need. Work study (often in makework jobs with ample downtime for studying) for almost anyone who seeks them out. Even after that, employers in competitive fields offer loan repayment as a starting bonus,…
> The sticker price is misleading... There are scholarships... Work study... employers... offer loan repayments... public service makes some eligible for loan forgiveness
Most of these (scholarships, work study) are available in other countries without the sticker price in the USA. Employers don't need to offer loan repayment as a starting bonus in other countries because the sticker price isn't so ridiculous.
It worries me how you rationalize this away - what happens if you don't get a scholarship or that loan repayment as a starting bonus and don't want to work for the government? If you just want to work for a mid-tier accounting firm then your education could be costing you an astronomical portion of your paycheck.
Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
I grew up in an African village of 200, miles from anywhere and anything. I finished school but didn't go to university. Armed with that and my interest in computers I've managed to land jobs at both Microsoft and Nokia. As ever, every example has a counter-example. I don't know which approach is right, but crazy grateful I didn't go through the American system. The cost strikes me as crippling.
In most other Western countries the universities are pretty much the same as American ones, just without the crippling costs. U of T charges $10K USD annually for tuition, for an undergrad science degree, for a Canadian. McGill charges Quebec residents a stunning $2,000 a year for a science degree. There is no significant difference between U of T or McGill and any American university you care to name. Student costs…
This is actually the most insidious misperception that a wide swath of people appear to have about American education.
It's not that the government spends too LITTLE money - it's because it spends too MUCH without any in the form of cheap student loans with no risk based pricing.
Any 18 year old with no credit history can go and and take out over a $200k of student loans ($57,500 / year) from the government, without any regards to school or risk.
Barely graduated high school and majoring in underwater basketweaving at BoneHead U? As long as it's an "accredited school" (a sham process in and of itself), here's your money - at 3.5% interest! Nothing secured against the loan, no evaluation of your ability to repay, nothing - just free money with the not-so-insignificant fact that these loans are mostly non-dischargeable in bankruptcy or in some cases even death[1]
Majoring in computer science at Stanford? Here's the same loan at the same terms!
Now tell me which student is more likely to default and which is the better risk?
It's ABSOLUTELY because loans are underwritten by the US government willy-nilly in the name of "education for all" that we're in this mess, with universities building movie theaters and lazy rivers[2] at taxpayer expense.
It's a trillion dollar bubble waiting to pop.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_the_United_Sta...
[2]http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/21/fashion/college-recreation...
Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it
#37Too little is known about whether money spent in education is worth it, period. The US spends more on education per capita than almost all OECD countries, but performs worse on international metrics. What's the value proposition?
Is that per capita? The US is also one of the largest OECD countries in terms of population, so if not, it's a pretty meaningless statistic.
CS industry in general is a little bit strange because jobs are so plentiful and many of those jobs don't require particularly deep understanding of the core content of the scientific field. The same is not the case for e.g., mechanical engineering or medical professions.
Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it
#38Growing up in the late 20th century, I cannot imagine not having gone to university. Without it, I'd still live in a small village and probably doing some menial work in a factory or on a farm. I would not have had the experience of focussing on a subject for five years straight. I would not have had the experience of being able to reflect on society and my role in it. I would not have had the experience of discoveri…
In the information age and the knowledge society, unfortunately we don't need this industrial revolution legacy of boom in population growth to service factories and mines and the AI era and app economy would exacerbate the problem and squeeze more people.
We as humanity at a crossroads in our history as species and a civilization and we need to stand up to this challenge and conquer our problems and fears.
Finally, I must congratulate on your contributions to the progress of humanity, every good word counts and every good idea enriches out lives.
Thank you for all!
Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it
#39Too little is known about whether money spent in education is worth it, period. The US spends more on education per capita than almost all OECD countries, but performs worse on international metrics. What's the value proposition?
A cushy introduction to living by oneself. My school built a new $60 million dollar gym two years ago that blows other gyms out of the water. I've got nice library's and computers to study on, cheap world class sports that can entertain me, and more. That's where a lot of the increased costs are going.
Re: Too little is known about whether money spent on higher education is worth it
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
> In most other Western countries the universities are pretty much the same as American ones, just without the crippling costs. The sticker price is misleading though. There are scholarships for merit and grants for need. Work study (often in makework jobs with ample downtime for studying) for almost anyone who seeks them out. Even after that, employers in competitive fields offer loan repayment as a starting bonus,…
> The sticker price is misleading... There are scholarships... Work study... employers... offer loan repayments... public service makes some eligible for loan forgiveness Most of these (scholarships, work study) are available in other countries without the sticker price in the USA. Employers don't need to offer loan repayment as a starting bonus in other countries because the sticker price isn't so ridiculous. It wor…
> Most of these (scholarships, work study) are available in other countries without the sticker price in the USA.
That's a distinction without a difference if almost no one is paying the sticker price except for the trust fund kid without any ability or willingness to work.
> It worries me how you rationalize this away
I disagree with you because the alternative model, "free or cheap for all," ends up subsidizing that trust fund kid who has no ability or desire to work. If you're subsidizing the rich, it's ultimately at the expense of the poor. It's a regressive system dressed up as progressive, it's just a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Characterizing our disagreement as "me rationalizing something away" though is undeservedly patronizing. If I responded in kind the discussion would quickly devolve into name calling.
We have a good faith disagreement. We can treat it that way or just not bother discussing it.