“So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary” • Hacker News Board

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#31

Post by cssmoo » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 9:34 AM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #10

qq66 wrote: post #6

Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Take the list from the article itself, one of the "bullshit jobs" listed is actuary. Well, without actuaries, insurance would not be priced correctly, and would be prohibitively expensive or too cheap and insurance companies would go out of business. Either way, insurance would be less ava…

>Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Ok, so that's one that you cherry picked. How about these? * Private equity CEOs * Lobbyists * PR researchers * Telemarketers * Bailiffs Tell us how the world would be worse off without them. You could argue that some of these are doing actual harm to society, actually.

Court appointed bailiffs have been used by myself to recover owed cash on a couple of occasions so they serve a purpose and a good one. If people enter a contract they can't fulfil then there needs to be a method to obtain appropriate compensation.

As for the rest, I agree.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#32

Post by frik » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 9:34 AM UTC

zby wrote: post #21

The real problem here is complexity - people don't understand what is the goal of what they do, and often there really is no goal because their bosses do not understand the system too. Maybe we should start treating law and bylaws as code and fight the complexity with decoupling, encapsulation, no side effects, etc?

Maybe we should simplify law and then translate it to (open) code with the goal to automate and reduce bureaucracy.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#33

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 9:37 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #23

crdoconnor wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Ok, so that's one that you cherry picked. How about these? * Private equity CEOs * Lobbyists * PR researchers * Telemarketers * Bailiffs Tell us how the world would be worse off without them. You could argue that some of these are doing actual harm to society, actually.

Let's take Private Equity CEOs. The bottom line of what they do is try to reallocate capital away from less productive investments and towards more productive investments.

Which is why we have off-shoring, and stagnant or dropping real income for that segment of the population that still has a job.

Are these good things? Is it a good thing when a private equity investor starts stomping around your startup demanding you treat your hires like exploitable assets and not like friends or colleagues you respect?

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#34

Post by jonsen » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 9:38 AM UTC

msh wrote: post #8

qq66 wrote: post #6

Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Take the list from the article itself, one of the "bullshit jobs" listed is actuary. Well, without actuaries, insurance would not be priced correctly, and would be prohibitively expensive or too cheap and insurance companies would go out of business. Either way, insurance would be less ava…

Much of Europe works perfectly well with out health insurance.

It is still insurance when administered by the government and payed through taxes.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#35

Post by BinaryIdiot » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 9:39 AM UTC

EdwardDiego wrote: post #11

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #4

I can't say I'm surprised and I much agree with this. I've held many positions in both the private and public sector. While the public sector was always inefficient (honestly it was significantly worse than I pictured before starting...far far worse like you could easily eliminate hundreds of jobs without impact worse) private sector is pretty bad in many places as well. It's also amazing what networking can do to ge…

> While the public sector was always inefficient (honestly it was significantly worse than I pictured before starting...far far worse like you could easily eliminate hundreds of jobs without impact worse) private sector is pretty bad in many places as well. I've worked in a public sector department that was run like a business. It was a contact centre that provided information and assistance with various government f…

> Anyway, my long winded point is that public sector isn't inherently inefficient, and private sector isn't inherently efficient. Any sufficiently large organisation sprouts a self-sustaining bureaucracy.

I completely agree; the public sector part I was in is probably a bad example as it's probably some of the worst places for bureaucracy and politics. It was incredibly difficult for anyone who wants to use tax dollars wisely to make headway.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#36

Post by littletimmy » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 9:44 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #23

crdoconnor wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Ok, so that's one that you cherry picked. How about these? * Private equity CEOs * Lobbyists * PR researchers * Telemarketers * Bailiffs Tell us how the world would be worse off without them. You could argue that some of these are doing actual harm to society, actually.

Let's take Private Equity CEOs. The bottom line of what they do is try to reallocate capital away from less productive investments and towards more productive investments.

In general, you can make that sort of broad argument about anything. For example, you could say slavers were trying to reallocate labor from where it was less productive (African subsistence farming) to where it was more productive (building the American economy).

The point being made here is whether Private Equity CEOs are contributing anything substantial apart from concentrating capital. The answer to that has to be no. Private equity firms (the refashioned lbo firms, not vc) have a history of preying on medium-sized solid businesses where they strip the company of assets, load it with debt, and eventually pocket gains at the expense of employees and other stakeholders.

That said, I agree with you in that a PE CEO is a bad example to use in this case. A PE firm is not neutral-useless, it is deleterious to society.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#37

Post by kokey » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 9:44 AM UTC

I read this as a rant from someone saying technology hasn't come far enough, but spent decades of his own time not doing anything about improving technology for society himself. He sounds like a consumer, complaining about the service he is receiving. The fact that he could have lived his bohemic lifestyle shielded from this so long is evidence of how well it has been working. There is certainly a problem with inefficiency, but usually that is driven by the humans inside of an organisation, people, like him, who get comfortable with their position and who only think about their here and now and not about the long term impact on themselves and society in general. Now, at this age, he comes up with theories and ideas of that sounds like that of a student with a naive understanding of the world, with 'better' ways of doing things and blaming 'the powers out there' on the problems, it's no wonder that he gets widespread support from the student age populations of social networks.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#38

Post by crdoconnor » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 9:48 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #23

crdoconnor wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Ok, so that's one that you cherry picked. How about these? * Private equity CEOs * Lobbyists * PR researchers * Telemarketers * Bailiffs Tell us how the world would be worse off without them. You could argue that some of these are doing actual harm to society, actually.

Let's take Private Equity CEOs. The bottom line of what they do is try to reallocate capital away from less productive investments and towards more productive investments.

Can you try to explain how they did that in the case of Guitar Center?

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/08/guitar-center-private...

The theory and reality of private equity do seem to be worlds apart. Much like the theory and practice of high speed trading.

In theory they reallocate capital more productively. In practice they seem to make money by squeezing workers, taxpayers, investors and even their own customers (some of whom seem content to squeezed - CalPERs, for instance).

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#39

Post by darawk » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 9:49 AM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #33

WalterBright wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take Private Equity CEOs. The bottom line of what they do is try to reallocate capital away from less productive investments and towards more productive investments.

Which is why we have off-shoring, and stagnant or dropping real income for that segment of the population that still has a job. Are these good things? Is it a good thing when a private equity investor starts stomping around your startup demanding you treat your hires like exploitable assets and not like friends or colleagues you respect?

a) Off-shoring is a consequence of poorly thought out and even more poorly enforced tax-laws, not private equity firms.

b) If you have a private equity investor stomping around your startup, it's because you solicited their investment. If you didn't want it, don't take the money. Simple.

Re: “So many people spend their working lives doing jobs they think are unnecessary”

#40

Post by crdoconnor » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 9:51 AM UTC

cssmoo wrote: post #31

crdoconnor wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most people who criticize "bullshit jobs" simply lack the perspective to see how these jobs are critically important for society. Ok, so that's one that you cherry picked. How about these? * Private equity CEOs * Lobbyists * PR researchers * Telemarketers * Bailiffs Tell us how the world would be worse off without them. You could argue that some of these are doing actual harm to society, actually.

Court appointed bailiffs have been used by myself to recover owed cash on a couple of occasions so they serve a purpose and a good one. If people enter a contract they can't fulfil then there needs to be a method to obtain appropriate compensation. As for the rest, I agree.

Sure, that was good for you.

I don't think anybody would argue that these jobs aren't good for somebody. The real question is whether they are contributing to society at large.

I know somebody who hired a lobbyist too. Worked out great.