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How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

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Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#31

Post by duaneb »

USNetizen wrote: post #22

People confuse entry level programming with true computer science. I'm sorry, but there is no way a few months at some "hacker school" will replace a four year degree heavy in mathematics, theory and design. Schools like these are producing mediocre coders, at best. Which is fine if you just want to write a few small apps. But you REALLY need that CS experience and education to effectively work on large scale enginee…

This is crap. Yes, CS has important theory you won't learn about in "hacker school", but it's not like the (ridiculously expensive) education itself is necessary. Everything you need is on wikipedia and stackoverflow.

Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#32

Post by patio11 »

USNetizen wrote: post #22

People confuse entry level programming with true computer science. I'm sorry, but there is no way a few months at some "hacker school" will replace a four year degree heavy in mathematics, theory and design. Schools like these are producing mediocre coders, at best. Which is fine if you just want to write a few small apps. But you REALLY need that CS experience and education to effectively work on large scale enginee…

FWIW, I'd self-assess at top 20% of my CS class (WashU), and I can say without reservation that as of graduation day it would have been rank insanity to have me coding on a production system. There are occasional times when the book learning comes in handy, but CS degrees are, in my experience, neither necessary nor sufficient to develop ability to ship working software.

Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#33

Post by pdiddy »

jim_greco wrote: post #11
chriogenix wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say it depends on what the costs are. If he has to rack up a TON of student loan debt it may not make much sense. You can make friends and social connections outside of school if you create the environment to do that. Its a lot easier in school but to avoid the traps of student loan debt its probably better to continue making/creating software if thats the end goal.

You don't have to rack up student loan debt at MIT or any of the other elite colleges in America. If your family can't afford it then you'll get a ton of grants from their endowments (and work study to supplement). It's the next level down in colleges, especially at liberal arts schools, where students get stuck with the bills.

That may be the case now, but I graduated from Penn in 2006, and it was different story then (until about 2008 I think, with Princeton being the first to break the trend). Before that, a portion of your financial aid would be a loan directly from the school. My loan was subsequently sold to Citibank.

Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#35

Post by Kalium »

duaneb wrote: post #31
USNetizen wrote: post #22

People confuse entry level programming with true computer science. I'm sorry, but there is no way a few months at some "hacker school" will replace a four year degree heavy in mathematics, theory and design. Schools like these are producing mediocre coders, at best. Which is fine if you just want to write a few small apps. But you REALLY need that CS experience and education to effectively work on large scale enginee…

This is crap. Yes, CS has important theory you won't learn about in "hacker school", but it's not like the (ridiculously expensive) education itself is necessary. Everything you need is on wikipedia and stackoverflow.

In theory, you don't need college to learn much of anything. In practice, few people are going to correctly teach themselves discrete mathematics within a reasonable timeframe.

Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#36

Post by this2shallPass »

USNetizen wrote: post #28
woah wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, CS degrees have little to do with programming skill. I work with hacker school graduates that write cleaner more maintainable code faster than others with CS degrees and 20 years of experience. EDIT: Actually, the fact that you mention "large scale engineered systems" is interesting. Generally, I have found large, monolithic, tightly coupled systems to be very unmaintainable. "Building a small app" (or a bu…

That is your social proof. Try passing one of these hacker school grads off in an engineered environment at Google scale - they fall apart quickly. You proved my point, though. Programming is only one small aspect of computer science. Engineering, mathematics and theory is the biggest part which you can't get at a 6 week school.

It would be helpful to hear about your proof, social or otherwise.

Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#37

Post by Lawtonfogle »

woah wrote: post #27
USNetizen wrote: post #22

People confuse entry level programming with true computer science. I'm sorry, but there is no way a few months at some "hacker school" will replace a four year degree heavy in mathematics, theory and design. Schools like these are producing mediocre coders, at best. Which is fine if you just want to write a few small apps. But you REALLY need that CS experience and education to effectively work on large scale enginee…

Actually, CS degrees have little to do with programming skill. I work with hacker school graduates that write cleaner more maintainable code faster than others with CS degrees and 20 years of experience. EDIT: Actually, the fact that you mention "large scale engineered systems" is interesting. Generally, I have found large, monolithic, tightly coupled systems to be very unmaintainable. "Building a small app" (or a bu…

I've met individuals with one year experience in doing something the wrong way, 20 times. I think the CS degree will prepare the right person to be a better programmer while letting the wrong person slide through. So it may be that the hacker school doesn't prepare the right person as well, but works far better at quickly culling the wrong person, meaning they would be the safer choice to hire from.

Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#38

Post by robotkilla »

USNetizen wrote: post #22

People confuse entry level programming with true computer science. I'm sorry, but there is no way a few months at some "hacker school" will replace a four year degree heavy in mathematics, theory and design. Schools like these are producing mediocre coders, at best. Which is fine if you just want to write a few small apps. But you REALLY need that CS experience and education to effectively work on large scale enginee…

> CS experience and education

I will add that the experience and education can be gained outside of a classroom. I managed to teach myself everything I know and have been a valuable employee at various large companies in a major US city and I never attended school (see previous comments).

In the end though what I really did was get lucky that I was born a fast learner.

Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#39

Post by woah »

USNetizen wrote: post #28
woah wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, CS degrees have little to do with programming skill. I work with hacker school graduates that write cleaner more maintainable code faster than others with CS degrees and 20 years of experience. EDIT: Actually, the fact that you mention "large scale engineered systems" is interesting. Generally, I have found large, monolithic, tightly coupled systems to be very unmaintainable. "Building a small app" (or a bu…

That is your social proof. Try passing one of these hacker school grads off in an engineered environment at Google scale - they fall apart quickly. You proved my point, though. Programming is only one small aspect of computer science. Engineering, mathematics and theory is the biggest part which you can't get at a 6 week school.

Absolutely, if your job is to write search algorithms you definitely need a CS degree (and it'd be great if you have a math degree too). But I'm talking about the day to day app dev, where craftmanship matters a lot more than algorithms.

Re: How One High School Grad Studied Computer Science Debt-Free and Nabbed a $90k Job

#40

Post by USNetizen »

woah wrote: post #27
USNetizen wrote: post #22

People confuse entry level programming with true computer science. I'm sorry, but there is no way a few months at some "hacker school" will replace a four year degree heavy in mathematics, theory and design. Schools like these are producing mediocre coders, at best. Which is fine if you just want to write a few small apps. But you REALLY need that CS experience and education to effectively work on large scale enginee…

Actually, CS degrees have little to do with programming skill. I work with hacker school graduates that write cleaner more maintainable code faster than others with CS degrees and 20 years of experience. EDIT: Actually, the fact that you mention "large scale engineered systems" is interesting. Generally, I have found large, monolithic, tightly coupled systems to be very unmaintainable. "Building a small app" (or a bu…

I think you haven't worked much in enterprise environments. You confuse "monolithic" with engineering. Nowhere does an engineered system have to be "tightly coupled" ... I think you could benefit from some of that CS education to see what I mean.

You're confusing "engineered," as in orderly, organized and planned according to specifications with "legacy" systems. A little more time in industry will show the difference.

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