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Understand contracts before you sign them

lawgeex.com

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Re: Understand contracts before you sign them

#31

Post by falcolas »

jamesk_au wrote: post #28
pdkl95 wrote: post #23

We have the ability to calculate a rough estimate of the time required to read a given text. This means we can create a law that states that for a contract to be valid, each party must be given at least 80% of that time[1] for the contract to be considered valid. Don't want to give the necessary 30-60min? Don't write so long of a contract, or figure out a way to do without. [1] 20% is to remove any margin of error in…

There's no need for such a law.[1] If you haven't read it, or if you don't understand it, don't sign it. Problem solved. If you don't have the confidence to ask for time to consider or seek advice about a contract you've been asked to sign, that is a different problem. [1] In some jurisdictions there is a statutory 'cooling off' period for particular classes of contract (eg five business days for the sale of resident…

Have you read and understood the T&C for Hacker News? How about your ISP? The captive portal in your local coffee shop? Your computer's/phone's OS upgrades? Your car's ECM (it's probably buried in the user manual)?

We encounter too many of these on a daily basis, on things required simply to participate in modern life, to read/understand the vast majority of them.

Re: Understand contracts before you sign them

#32

Post by vertex-four »

joosters wrote: post #9
vertex-four wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a javascript popup. Enable javascript.

I get it too and I have javascript enabled. The URL is https://www.lawgeex.com/static/Error.html - which isn't too helpful for a 404 ! Also, the error page breaks my browser's back button.

Huh... somehow it works on Firefox, but not on my Chromebook. :(

Re: Understand contracts before you sign them

#33

Post by GavinMcG »

mootothemax wrote: post #19

I'm always shocked by the number of people who don't read the contracts they sign. It's one thing if you have hundreds of pages of legalese in front of you - I can see the value of a service such as this, or hiring your own lawyer for such cases - but for a few pages, five minutes of your time max, I just don't understand why so many people don't take the time to do so. One habit I've noticed in highly successful peo…

Judge Richard Posner claims that he didn't read the contract for his home equity loan:

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/do-lawyers-actaully-read-boil...

Re: Understand contracts before you sign them

#34

Post by falcolas »

hobs wrote: post #27
littleweep wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you read the entire End User License Agreement before clicking 'Install'?

Yes, I read every contract I sign my name to, or prevent myself from taking that action. I didnt start doing this until I was probably about 16 or 17 and realized the terms that people were tying themselves to, and often that said terms were legally binding. I have had employers and peers ridicule me when I take my time to always read everything in the contract, and I simply dont care, I will continue to do it anyway…

Honest question, how do you get anything else done? I'm in the coffee shop for my morning hacker news dose, and I've already interacted with 2-3 contracts in the form of EULAs in the 20 minutes I've been here.

If I took the time to read and comprehend each of those (while looking for changes in one I've read before, after all there's usually a "terms may change without prior notice" clause), I wouldn't have done anything else this morning.

Re: Understand contracts before you sign them

#35

Post by pdkl95 »

ta75757 wrote: post #24
pdkl95 wrote: post #23

We have the ability to calculate a rough estimate of the time required to read a given text. This means we can create a law that states that for a contract to be valid, each party must be given at least 80% of that time[1] for the contract to be considered valid. Don't want to give the necessary 30-60min? Don't write so long of a contract, or figure out a way to do without. [1] 20% is to remove any margin of error in…

Read or understand? This is legalese we're talking about.

Understanding is beyond the scope of what I'd like to see fixed in contract law. The idea is that if you have a 5 page contract, it should have taken at least 8 minutes[1] to read regardless of if it is legalease or written in a plain style.

It's a lower bound. Failure to satisfy that bound can then be seen as prima facie evidence that the has not been a "meeting of the minds", due to one party being given sufficient time to even read the contract.

As I tried to imply, there are various configurable details here that would need to be negotiated; I just believe that some sort of minimum bound should be established in law. The alternative is to allow the current trend of de facto contracts of adhesion to grow.

[1] or whatever the length of time is calculated to be - I just made up this number

Re: Understand contracts before you sign them

#36

Post by jxm »

dredmorbius wrote: post #29
kyle_t wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are two things at play here. 1. People perceive they don't have a choice. For example when you visit the doctor and you have to sign 12 different form/contracts. Most people believe they either sign them or don't get treated. 2. Fear of not understanding. They think they wouldn't understand they legalese even if they tried, so why even bother? Personally I don't blame them. I've read contracts that were…

I've walked out of businesses and/or offices on account of contract terms offered. There is that option.

Do you find that has a negative affect on your interactions with society? I can't imagine I could find a dentist or doctor that didn't have patient contractual obligations that I'd rather not agree to.

Re: Understand contracts before you sign them

#37

Post by jamesk_au »

falcolas wrote: post #31
jamesk_au wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no need for such a law.[1] If you haven't read it, or if you don't understand it, don't sign it. Problem solved. If you don't have the confidence to ask for time to consider or seek advice about a contract you've been asked to sign, that is a different problem. [1] In some jurisdictions there is a statutory 'cooling off' period for particular classes of contract (eg five business days for the sale of resident…

Have you read and understood the T&C for Hacker News? How about your ISP? The captive portal in your local coffee shop? Your computer's/phone's OS upgrades? Your car's ECM (it's probably buried in the user manual)? We encounter too many of these on a daily basis, on things required simply to participate in modern life, to read/understand the vast majority of them.

The proposition that it is impractical to read and understand every contract we enter into does not present a need for a law invalidating or avoiding every contract where insufficient time to read and understand it is not given. I think the only consequence of the proposed law (if that proposition is correct) would be to destroy contractual certainty for a time; the premise denies that anyone would actually use the period of time for its intended purpose.

I also only referred to contracts that are signed. Signatures are important: as a general rule, you are taken to have read and understood the terms of any contract you have signed. If you agree to the terms of a contract without signing (eg many of the examples you mention, or oral acceptance, or clicking a button) there is generally no such assumption. Whether that will afford you any greater measure of relief if you later want to get out of the contract depends on the individual case, but there are circumstances in which it will.

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