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Edward Snowden, Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald: AUAA

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Re: Edward Snowden, Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald: AUAA

#31
post #14

A good thing about America is that while the "politics" lag behind citizens and US companies try at least to solve partially the problem. I liked these bits: Google encrypted the backhaul communications between their data centers to prevent passive monitoring. Apple was the first forward with an FDE-by-default smartphone (kudos!) We often denigrate US and his biggest companies like: Apple, Google or Microsoft. So I a…

Companies won't solve the problem, because the problem is in a different domain. "Our data" may be sort of safe, but the civil rights are being eroded, which is a much bigger issue. Having such powerful entities living in complete independence from the government, and with complete unaccountability, is a social disaster. Besides, the data owned by a user in the more "immediate" sense, may be sort of safe, but don't f…

Companies won't solve the problem, because the problem is in a different domain.

I think this is an interesting question, because it intersects with the rise and fall of the nation state - at some point (perhaps that point has already been reached) corporations will have greater reach and greater power than nation states and individuals will start to feel less allegiance to the state of their birth. Will they start to look to companies to protect their rights?

I disagree that laws which govern a nation state are the right level for this sort of issue or that nation states are more trustworthy - those are precisely the laws which have been subverted and used against us in order to subvert encryption of websites, sim cards or any of our other communications and allow recording of it all. Just as one example of how easily our laws are subverted the man in charge of supervising UK surveillance can be bought for a few thousand pounds for trivial matters:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/23/mp-malcolm-r...

International law is even worse. Even with the relatively good accountability and civil rights in the US (for most citizens most of the time), the US government has arrogated the right to kill you without trial, detain you indefinitely without trial, or torture you without legal recourse because to give you legal recourse would endanger state secrets. Such is the state of our civil rights - they are selectively applied and withdrawn by the state as it suits them, and words like traitor or terrorist are used to put someone beyond the pale of civilisation and therefore outlaw.

Here is what Snowden had to say about it on that AMA:

How do we make that work for us? We can devise means, through the application and sophistication of science, to remind governments that if they will not be responsible stewards of our rights, we the people will implement systems that provide for a means of not just enforcing our rights, but removing from governments the ability to interfere with those rights.

I agree with that - what is effective is moral certitudes which individuals agree and act upon, not nation state law or international law which are so easily ignored or subverted. That means technical solutions, not legal ones, though I agree it is better to rely on neither the nation state nor the corporation in proposing solutions.

Re: Edward Snowden, Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald: AUAA

#32
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More specifically, HN tries to avoid inflammatory topics that cause a lot of ultimately fruitless discussion ("flamewars"), typically identified by news items with more comments than votes. Political topics are frowned upon for causing this. I disagree that HN wants to minimize "awareness" of these topics, but mods have been clear in the past that, while they agree the topic is important, it distracts HN away from th…

The obvious counterargument to HN's policy is that the developers building the next generation of web services should be able to openly discuss mass surveillance and how our present technology enables it. And that, furthermore, this discussion is in the best interest of HN because developers on the whole are obviously passionate about the issue and will be a part of how it evolves in the future, one way or another. I…

> I get HN's policy and the reasoning behind it

Are you sure? I don't see anything in your first paragraph that either we or HN's policies would disagree with—quite the contrary. And obviously HN hosts a great deal of just such discussion.

Re: Edward Snowden, Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald: AUAA

#33
post #9

Similar to the HN penalty, reddit also seems to have some Snowden countermeasures in effect. It was a very popular IAmA, but the Android AMA app, displayed only 2 answers for it, and the 3 people who wanted to answer, Laura Poitras, Ed Snowden and Glen Greenwald, were limited to about one answer per 10 minutes, so for the whole hour they could answer about 10 questions. This limits usability and civil interactions a…

I would be more curious to know the number of down votes the AMA has gotten, I could have sworn the number has gone down

Re: Edward Snowden, Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald: AUAA

#34

>Much like physics post-Manhattan project, an entire field of research that was broadly apolitical realized that work intended to improve the human condition could also be subverted to degrade it. [1] What an incredible analogy. [1]: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2wwdep/we_are_edward_s...

At the end of the day is anyone arguing it was a bad thing that the Americans got to the bomb (and used it) before the Germans, Japanese or Russians did? I'd hand the button over to someone like Truman over Hitler or Stalin any day of the week.

Do I like the tools the NSA has in its possession? No. But I am happy they got there (and have access to them) before the Chinese, Russians or Arabs did. Are there going to be disasters like Hiroshima and Nagasaki thanks to these tools? I don't think so.

Will the NSA and the government misuse the tools and make mistakes? Definitely. Their effectiveness must be constantly monitored and questioned. (Huge respect for Snowden for making that possible.)

But these tools aren't going anywhere until all the embarrassingly smart technologists around here stop wasting their time pretending to be lawyers (the law and lawmakers aren't going to get us out of this hole) and design better tech to stop the next Boston bombing, Charlie Hedbo style attack or ISIS recruitment drives.

Re: Edward Snowden, Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald: AUAA

#35
post #34

>Much like physics post-Manhattan project, an entire field of research that was broadly apolitical realized that work intended to improve the human condition could also be subverted to degrade it. [1] What an incredible analogy. [1]: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2wwdep/we_are_edward_s...

At the end of the day is anyone arguing it was a bad thing that the Americans got to the bomb (and used it) before the Germans, Japanese or Russians did? I'd hand the button over to someone like Truman over Hitler or Stalin any day of the week. Do I like the tools the NSA has in its possession? No. But I am happy they got there (and have access to them) before the Chinese, Russians or Arabs did. Are there going to be…

What answer regarding nuclear weapons would you expect to get on a hypothetical news.ycombinator.jp? a .ru? I think the GP and Snowden's point is that the world would be better off without them, not looking to start a debate about which country is the better worldwide nuclear policeman.

What better tech are you hypothesizing? You've seem to have already come to the conclusion that the tech we have isn't enough, while preemptively declaring that policy can't solve the West's issues. I think that technical literacy amongst legal professionals and legal literacy amongst technical professionals are steps in the right direction towards a balance of safety and liberty, and are ones that do not immediately entail increasing the scope of surveillance programs.

Re: Edward Snowden, Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald: AUAA

#36
post #14

A good thing about America is that while the "politics" lag behind citizens and US companies try at least to solve partially the problem. I liked these bits: Google encrypted the backhaul communications between their data centers to prevent passive monitoring. Apple was the first forward with an FDE-by-default smartphone (kudos!) We often denigrate US and his biggest companies like: Apple, Google or Microsoft. So I a…

Companies won't solve the problem, because the problem is in a different domain. "Our data" may be sort of safe, but the civil rights are being eroded, which is a much bigger issue. Having such powerful entities living in complete independence from the government, and with complete unaccountability, is a social disaster. Besides, the data owned by a user in the more "immediate" sense, may be sort of safe, but don't f…

Usually the private sector comes first, I'm pretty sure in the next elections this will be a strong part of the agenda of any candidate.

Re: Edward Snowden, Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald: AUAA

#37
post #35
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day is anyone arguing it was a bad thing that the Americans got to the bomb (and used it) before the Germans, Japanese or Russians did? I'd hand the button over to someone like Truman over Hitler or Stalin any day of the week. Do I like the tools the NSA has in its possession? No. But I am happy they got there (and have access to them) before the Chinese, Russians or Arabs did. Are there going to be…

What answer regarding nuclear weapons would you expect to get on a hypothetical news.ycombinator.jp? a .ru? I think the GP and Snowden's point is that the world would be better off without them, not looking to start a debate about which country is the better worldwide nuclear policeman. What better tech are you hypothesizing? You've seem to have already come to the conclusion that the tech we have isn't enough, while…

Yeah, the russians are most defently looking back on the glory days of socialism.

Re: Edward Snowden, Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald: AUAA

#38
post #34

>Much like physics post-Manhattan project, an entire field of research that was broadly apolitical realized that work intended to improve the human condition could also be subverted to degrade it. [1] What an incredible analogy. [1]: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2wwdep/we_are_edward_s...

At the end of the day is anyone arguing it was a bad thing that the Americans got to the bomb (and used it) before the Germans, Japanese or Russians did? I'd hand the button over to someone like Truman over Hitler or Stalin any day of the week. Do I like the tools the NSA has in its possession? No. But I am happy they got there (and have access to them) before the Chinese, Russians or Arabs did. Are there going to be…

This analogy is completely broken, because the NSA could have instead seen it as its mission to ensure effective encryption on all communications.

With that, no country would have the NSA's current capability. No such possibility existed with nuclear weapons.

Re: Edward Snowden, Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald: AUAA

#39
post #22
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Snowden", "NSA", and similar keywords are auto-flagging triggers. The HN team has algorithms in place to minimize discussion and awareness of these topics. See: http://www.righto.com/2013/11/how-hacker-news-ranking-really... "It appears that any article with NSA in the title gets an automatic penalty of .4".

There hasn't been any penalty on NSA/Snowden stories for a long time. I'm surprised to see this even come up, since I've commented on it quite a bit and thought the information had gotten around by now. "Minimize awareness"? Obviously we don't try to do that, nor would we want to, or even think that way. The reason there was a penalty—the mildest possible—was procedural. For several months after the Snowden news brok…

That doesn't appear to be the case:

    7.  Hacking Oklahoma State University's Student ID (snelling.io)
        94 points by samsnelling 5 hours ago
        
    9.  Introduction to Facebook's Flux architecture (ryanclark.me)
        204 points by wayfarer2s 8 hours ago
        
    11. Edward Snowden, Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald: AUAA (reddit.com)
        376 points by ahamdy 4 hours ago
Maybe there is some forgotten code in there somewhere?

Re: Edward Snowden, Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald: AUAA

#40
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There hasn't been any penalty on NSA/Snowden stories for a long time. I'm surprised to see this even come up, since I've commented on it quite a bit and thought the information had gotten around by now. "Minimize awareness"? Obviously we don't try to do that, nor would we want to, or even think that way. The reason there was a penalty—the mildest possible—was procedural. For several months after the Snowden news brok…

> "Minimize awareness"? Obviously we don't try to do that, nor would we ever want to, or even think that way. The higher up on Hacker News an article is, the more awareness will typically be allocated to the story. If a story drops from the front page, significantly less attention will be allocated to it. While the penalties might not have been intended to minimize awareness of these stories in the greater scheme of…

It's not exactly difficult to move past the first page or to use the search bar, and any comments about those stories are going to appear on /newcomments anyway.

If there is an effect of 'minimizing awareness' at work, I don't think the effect is very large.

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